HOW exactly could Marciano beat Tyson?

Because Tyson could've gotten up to win. When Lewis was floored he was KTFO. The scenario for Jeffries when when he was old, inactive, and going up against one an ATG opponent.

 

Jim also overcame a broken arm to win.

That seems to beforgoting. Thats better than overcomeing a knockdown to win imo.

 

So by your admission the only possible time that Tyson could have came off the floor to win was against Holyfield in their first fight?

He got up and fought on. Holyfield fought better. And won. End of story.

I guess Frazier has no heart because he couldn't get off the floor to beat Foreman.

 

Tyson could of had a heart as big as Texas and still wouldn't of been able to continue against Evander, Lewis, and Douglas. Getting off the canvas only means so much, it should help Tyson's legacy that he was down so few times and it speaks to how much you had him to hurt him before he caved in.

If he had a chin like Frazier we would of seen him get off the canvas against Bruno/Ruddock as well as Smith in the 12th and Tucker in the 1st. We never saw Tyson hit the canvas short of him taking a sustained beating that resulted in him finally dropping, thus the scenario of him getting off the canvas to win never happened.

 

Jeffries was a freak.

The reason I mentioned him was to expose the moronic popular saying which somehow only applies to Tyson which is "he has no heart because he never got off the canvas to win."

 

atschatschatsch

 

I can't give you an answer because you actually compare Frazier's heart to Tyson's. It's not even in the same league. You have your mind made up on the matter. He took his beating but gave up long before he was knocked out. The Holyfield knockdown didn't buzz him but completely discouraged him. That was really the end for Tyson's chances it seemed. End of story.

 

Obviously.

I don't need to take the literal "Off the canvas = No heart" approach. Look at his body language. From Douglas to Holy to Lewis. He just didn't have it there. He got completely discouraged and quit. His effort was in spurts. He doesn't have the heart no where near a Frazier. Even mentioning Frazier and Tyson in regards to heart is insulting to Frazier. As an athlete, there's a difference between trying and giving it all you can. I wouldn't have played HS basketball in 8th/9th grade if it hadn't been for me busting my a** off harder than anyone on the team. 5'5 nothing. But I got my playing time and gave everything I had on defense... that's how/why I played.

Tyson has pride, of course. But his body language tells it all. People credit him for heart because he took Douglas down with a shot in the 9th. Tyson would fight, and try finding his moments. He wasn't brain dead in the ring there... but he didn't give everything back. He certainly gets overly frustrated (attempts to break arms, hit illegally after the break, etc) which further shows Tyson's discouragement. That discouragement is a sign of slowly giving up. I'm sorry if some of you Tyson fans can't accept that, or accept my opinion on the subject. There's degrees of effort. Tyson's pride let him take it but he went through the motions. He didn't give it 110%. He's no where near a Frazier, Ali, or Marciano in this category.

When Tyson loses you can't say he couldn't have given more. That's just a lie. And when Tyson losses, you can't say he fought as hard as the man on the other side... because it isn't true. Each time he lost he got out-fought in more ways than one, and heart is one of those areas.

 

that discouragement you're talking about also comes from lack of confidence that occurs when a fighter knows he hadnt trained as hard as he should have. tyson became very undisciplined over the course of his career. in his losses to douglas and holyfield, he clearly wasnt skilled enough to deal with either man. he was througly outboxed by both men so he could do anything but hope to get lucky. he almost pulled it out against douglas but it wasnt meant to happen. against lewis, he was just too old to compete with a fighter that much bigger then him and more skilled at that stage in his career

 

Fair point, however Frazier was not in shape and past it against Foreman. He was getting knocked around the ring around like a pinball. He then realized around the 4th knockdown that he was "getting his butt kicked." Frazier got up and continued boring in like a warrior. Would Tyson withstand that much and keep trying? Obviously Tyson takes a better shot than Frazier but that's not the question. I just see Tyson getting more discouraged and easier in a situation like that... which is how he presented himself in most situations that required adversity. Adversity is what defines champions and Tyson hurt his legacy in these situations. Can't really change that.

As for the confidence thing. Again it's a fair point, but I'm pretty sure Tyson was thinking he would blow Douglas out of the water. When he didn't, maybe he had some regret. He got undisciplined but I'm not sure he was as out of shape as some protest just by the way he took some punishment.

 

Tyson is no Frazier, I'm not arguing that.

Very few, if any people in boxing history have Frazier's courage. Also, if Tyson was so discouraged, how did he manage to drop and nearly take out Douglas in the 8th? He also stormed out to start the 9th.

 

It is hilarious...The same people in this thread who argue Tyson is too "big" for marciano, are the same ones who are picking 165lbers Sam Langford and Harry Greb to beat Marciano. Double Standards?




I like Tyson over the rocky by mid round TKO in a bloodbath war. But Marciano earns tysons respect. Tyson simply has too much explosive speed power and technique, and will exploit rockys biggest weaknesses at mid range, but rocky does have his moments in close and becomes the first to back tyson up.

 

I can't figure out a scenario where Marciano could win this. I've been doing a little research, and have determined Marciano is better H2H than I originally thought. But he still wouldn't come close to beating a peak Iron Mike IMO.

 

well, the problem is, tyson became a typical frontrunner so he never had to worry about adversity until douglas, where he was completely unprepared. he seemed to be in shape but there are claims he was over 240lbs and was partying with women in japan before the fight. who knows but its obvious he didnt think much of douglas. tyson essentialy had two careers, one where he was a complete fighter who was fighting to be the best in history and the later is where he more or less was fighting to maintain his lifestyle and identity as a fighter. d'mato never intended for tyson to turn into what he became. nobody can deny his toughness as a fighter but as far as battling adversity, he appeared to have the ability to do so, but he never seemed to have the mindset to do so because it was such a foreign position for him. and he also seemed to have a false confidence. tyson seemed like a guy who needed cheerleaders to make him feel good. after a while he just got completely cocky. you remember he did manage to knock down douglas after taking a good beating for 7rds albeit short lived. the head hunting tyson that was looking for quick koes wasnt equipped to battle adversity. but thet yson who was actually fighting for a place in history may have fared better in those situations