Bob Baker was the highest regarded HW of the crop of prospects that included Rocky?

Perhaps they could have done that but there would have been questions about Rocky not wanting to rematch the man who had taken him to a split decision or the man who had formerly held the title and had become the number 1 contender at the time.

There were really no other desirable options at the time.

I never said that he wasn't trying to build a legacy, I was simply saying that they were handpicking the most suitable opponents for Marciano very intelligently. Legacy, money, rankings, the risk the opponent would present were all possible factors in deciding who was going to get the next shot.

Weill wanted to fight men like Cockell and Baker mostly but the public and the media did not want those fights.

They could do a lot about it and they did. Public pressure was the key to Marciano fighting Moore and also Patterson eventually fighting Liston.

In my opinion you're thinking of the term "hand-picking" a bit too negatively. I think picking Cockell instead of Valdes was a clear case of hand-picking an opponent, not that it was necessarily the wrong thing to do had Rocky's nose indeed fallen apart against Valdes.

There were many other boxers throughout history who didn't benefit from such clever management however and Rocky was one of the first ones to do so.

I would only have had Marciano fighting Valdes instead of Cockell. If you ask me, he could have defended his title a little more actively though, being more of a fighting champion.

 

I think your too hard on the 2 defenses thing imo.

Sure Louis had about 5 title defenses a year, but out of the 5, perhaps 1 or 2 were rank number 1 or 2, and the rest just filller.

Patterson didnt start fighting the top guys until his break with his managment, outside of Ingo of couse. No one gets onto Patterson for his run or Holmes.
But they sure get onto Marciano for not fighting Vales, even though he clean evey one else out.

Al was not trying to duck Moore per say. Once Moore prove he can bring in the crowd money wise, the fight was made. It was all about money there for the most part.

 

Marciano was not the "First" for hand pick if your going that route.

The worse case imo is Jack Dempsey. After his 2nd title defense, evey one from Carp to Tunney was hand pick for easy pickings.

 

Bob Baker was a pretty good fighter.


But they were WRONG on who was going to be top dog.

 

1. "I would only have Marciano fighting Valdes instead of Cockell"

That would be my only real criticism, and I would say it is a second-level one as Valdes lost 7 times while Marciano was champion.

2. "If you ask me, he could have defended his title a little more actively though, being more of a fighting champion."

Not to bring up such a mundane topic, but would you have paid off his taxes for him? The top tax bracket in the 1950's was 91%. If a heavyweight champion fought top contenders in ballpark fights, he was pushed into the a tax level that was ruinous. I remember an editorial in The Ring in which Nat Fleischer examined what could be expected of a champion and concluded that two marginal defenses or one major defense a year at heavyweight was the maximum because of the taxes. These high tax rates were in place from WWII until the sixties when the Kennedy tax cuts went into effect. Charles fought more often, but rarely against the top men and his fights didn't draw like those of Louis, Marciano, Patterson, Johansson, Liston, and Ali did. None of these champions defended more than twice a year until 1966 when the taxes were lowered.

Certainly Marciano and those around him remembered what had happened to Louis with taxes. The reason Valdes did not get a shot in May of 1955 rather than Cockell might have been as simple as Marciano and his business advisers concluding that fighting both Valdes and Moore in one year would have pushed him into a tax situation he could not afford, and so the less lucrative Cockell fight was first with Moore and Valdes fighting an elimination to see who got the Yankee Stadium big money shot.

 

Old Archie was number 1 rated, so was Hurricane Jackson. Roy Harris was number 3 or 4.

No one gets onto Patterson for his run? I think you are mistaken there. I've also seen a lot of criticism of Holmes' reign on these forums recently.

I wasn't saying that he tried to necessarily duck Moore but Weill was thinking of other fights before Moore until being forced to budge by public pressure.

This content is protected

Al Weill won't have to "make" this match, as Cockell's was made, an artificial concoction that made no money and no friends for Rocky. Here, at last, is a match which has been made for him by public opinion. That "million-dollar gate" talk is in the air again. The match has that solid ring to it. There is, for a change, difference of opinion as to who will win. Rocky had two arduous nights with craftsmen who knew more than he did and were able to punish him by moving around him and beating him to the punch."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1129886/1/index.htm

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=3412,3175301&dq=moore+marciano+weill

Here's an interview with Al Weill from 1963:

"When I was bringing my boys along there was one thing I stayed clear of. That was punchers. Marciano didn't go in with a puncher until his 25th fight. That was Carmine Vingo and Rocky stopped him in the 6th round."

"I (meaning Weill and Marciano) dodged Archie Moore for years, figuring he couldn't draw. Then when he beat Bobo Olson I said 'OK Rocky, he's yours'"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=3714,1116977&dq=moore+marciano+weill

 

"Marciano was not the "First" for hand picking"

Well, I think the " Weill carefully handpicking opponents" argument is unconvincing. It boils down to saying that Moore beat Valdes twice (in 1953 and 1955) and slaughtered Baker (1954) but he was "handpicked" in order to avoid two men he beat badly.

 

How many times did Valdes lose from the time he beat Ezzard Charles to when the fight with Marciano and Cockell was made though? None. That's the period in time I was talking about.

That's certainly some interesting information that I hadn't previously heard of. I'm not sure if I've read about Weill or Marciano talking about any problems with taxes though.

I'm also not sure if a bout between Marciano and Valdes was truly that lucrative. In a newspaper article I read, Weill was saying that "Rocky will take the one that can draw the most money."

Another newspaper article described Cockell as a fairly harmless challenger, thus the more likely one for the returning Marciano.

 

"I'm not sure if I've read about Weill or Marciano talking about any problems with taxes though."

1. Rocky was savvy about money, from what I have always heard and read.

2. Also, only Joe Louis, of any champion in the gloved era prior to Marciano on up into the sixties fought more than two defenses a year. Most champions fought less. Your standard isn't realistic. We have to remember that in order to pay the heavyweight champions' guarentees, big fights had to be outdoors in ballparks with huge seating capacity. Big-time winter fights just weren't in the cards in those days.

3. On Valdes' losses--he had lost four times in 1953. Cockell hadn't lost since 1952. And Cockell had been a rated contender as far back as 1950 and the European and British lightheavyweight champion. He was a rated fighter for years while Valdes was still a preliminary fighter. And Valdes had had an awful performance against the mediocre Archie McBride in Havana in early 1954, which many observers felt he would have lost in a fair decision. To a great extent, he had sat on his high rating, avoiding a return with Charles. Valdes might have been a tough sell to the public unless he could add a couple of more victories against the top men like Moore and Baker. His victory over Charles was viewed as a fluke by many and was further devalued when John Holman knocked out Charles in 1955.

 

Patterson I think was fighting infrequently due to factors other than money/taxes. Cus D'Amato's no IBC policy made it increasingly harder for Patterson to get fights.

Johansson, I don't think, really cared too much about defending his title and it's not like he held the title for long.

Liston was supposed to fight more times but the fights fell through.

Ali defended his titles much more frequently.

The fact is that just about nobody rated Cockell as a better challenger than Nino Valdes. All newspaper articles that I've read have described Cockell as "hand-picked" or a "harmless" challenger. Valdes was not viewed as a world beater either but he was a step above Cockell atleast.

Valdes had beaten 4 top 10 ranked challengers in the past 3 years, 3 by KO's, while staying undefeated and being ranked number 1. I think that should have been enough to warrant a shot at the title.

I'm not going to say that Marciano ducked him, because Valdes was no Harry Wills, but he was a top ranked fighter who saw his title shot given to Don Cockell of England. There was really no other reason for it from what I can see aside from Cockell being a safer opponent.

 

No champ has ever only fought the number one contenders.

He took one fight against a non top contender (ranked 2nd!) and then fought the number one contender Moore after that, who was coming off a win over the former number 1 contender Nino. That's not avoiding anyone.

 

Funny GreatA, The only thing Weill admits in that article is that he ducked Archie Moore. No where in the article do I hear the name "nino valdez". 2ndly, Weill ACCEPTED and fought Archie Moore..something most scared managers dont give into...Rocky dominated and knocked Archie out. Archie had cleaned out the division at the time. This was not only a huge win for rocky, but it debunked your only criticism of Weill avoiding Moore, since he took him on and knocked him out.


Lastly,


Saying marciano management ducked Valdez is NOT TRUE. In fact, Al Weill marciano manager realized in 1955 Valdez was a serious challenger and would be a decent draw, so he got in touch with Bobby Gleason, Valdez manager, and they BOOKED a Title fight between Marciano vs Valdez in Miami in the winter of 55, knowing the fight would draw there and produse a large spanish crowd. The fight was SCHEDULED. However, during this time archie was climbing up the rankings and challenging marciano everyday. So Valdez met Moore in a FINAL TITLE ELIMINATOR the winner a GAURANTEED shot at marciano. All Valdez had to do was beat a 38 year old lightheavyweight and his date in Miami vs Marciano would be kept. However he LOST, in fact archie outworked the bigger much younger bigger cuban in the last 3 rounds to win him the fight. Valdez ultimatley had no one to blame but himself. Then after the moore loss, Marciano management talked about fighting Valdez for his 50th match...however nino subsequently lost another eliminator to Bob Baker and then a wide decision to 180lb Bob satterfield. Clearly Nino losing the biggest matches of his career at most pivotal time had everything to do with it. Marciano tried to make it happen in miami, but Valdez kept losing. Such a shame.

In fact, Marciano further decided to give Valdez a title shot for his # 50 victory before retiring in 56.

Marciano Sees Valdez Title fight in June, Champion not ready to quit the ring yet

"Rocky Marciano will likely make his next defense of the title in June, against Nino Valdez, Rocky said at a press conference yesterday, held by Al Weill." - Chicago daily tribune Nov. 1955

What does Nino Valdez do? He loses ANOTHER title eliminator to Bob Baker in which AP report said "The mistake was in advertising this winner as Rocky Marcianos next opponent in world heavyweight championship. Neither apparently wanted to be marcianos next victim. Baker, in winning, also did a good job of eliminating himself as a prospective Marciano opponent."- Joe Smith New York Times. Then Valdez gets outslugged and pounded to the canvas in losing to a 180lb Satterfield. Then finally, Valdez drops decisions to young greenhornrs Machen and Folley in 1956 including getting knocked out cold by a eddie machen left to the liver. Ultimatley Valdez has no one to blame getting a title shot, than himself. marciano wanted to make it happen