Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

Suzie, how many times have you seen ron lyle go all out brawling with someone like he did against foreman? maybe if he did that more often he may have ko'd more opponents cuz he did have the power in the early rounds to do so. it helps if you connect with those big shots aswell like both lyle and foreman did in that fight.

 

Mullen,

10-4......... The odd thing is, Marciano may've stunned or hurt a young Foreman of 220 pounds, but no way in hell could Marciano even budge a 250 lb. Foreman at age 40......
thumbsup:rasta

MR.BILL

 

Ronald Lyle was not great by any means, however, he was stocky and buffed with lotsa' determination between 1973 to 1978................ By the time Cooney boy hammered Lyle in one round in '80, Lyle was a flabby 38 year old looking for some rent money.........

Sadly, Lyle's most publicized fights were his losing KO efforts to Ali and Foreman in 1975 / '76..... I kinda' like Lyle, but he really wasn't anything special in boxing........ But, he was tuff..........

MR.BILL

 

Wow, an intelligent post w/facts and well supported opinions!!!

:good

Also, Foreman ranked Marciano as the greatest heavyweight of all time behind Louis as I recall and said he would have destroyed the Ali that him and Frazier fought. Wander if he respects his opinion in that regard?


MR. Bill...Older Foreman wasn't more durable cause he was heavier, it had everything to do with his newly developed tough cross arm defense, conservative offense, and tightly tucked chin, moreso than his newfound gut and love handles. Don't think that version would be as troubling for Marciano as the older Joe Louis was; I stronglly feel the entire fight would look like the 7th round of the Holyfield fight with the stationary Foreman shelled up and getting staggered by the sheer volume of punches hitting him from all angles.

 

Marciano fans you are right if Marciano lands enough shots he can KO Foreman but Frazier could too if he landed enough left hooks. The problem is Marciano is very unikely to land enough because Foreman will land first due to his 10-12 inch reach advantage and faster hands. Foreman's jab, power and strength will back Marciano up, taking away his power. Marciano has to close 10inches of reach, getting past a great jab and right without getting hit. As he gets into mid-range he has the problem with Georges ATG uppercuts

Lyle is nothing like Rocky, he has much more height/reach and has much faster hands, which makes it far far easier for him to land and is why he could do damage to a faded George who wasnt on his game. If you've boxed you will have heard the expression 'be first' meaning land first because you cant land if your opponent has already bashed you with some massive shots. Lyle could land first, rocky can't, its that simple

The style is just all wrong for the Rock who truly is a great in his own right

Leaving all the disadvantages aside lets get back to the question. Rocky needs to fight a great defensive fight, keeping his guard high, bobbing and weaving, pumping his jab (dont laugh) slipping Georges jab at mid range. Rocky would need to change his game and get in and out of range. If I was Rocky's trainer challenging the 1974 Foreman, I'd systematically work on bulking him up with power and olympic lifts and using steroids, all the time keep him working his regular heavy bag. I'm not sue if I'd get Rocky to work the body as it would leave him open to uppercuts, but I'd encourage him to go low. I'd hope to high heaven it went past 6rounds where George would fade

I don't know if Rocky could change into this sort of fighter and if he could he'd still be slower and have reach problems here. Needless to say I don't see a chance in hell for the version of Rocky we know to beat George, with no disrespect to him I see him lasting less than 3 full rounds

 

maybe what qawi did and he'll be slightly closer to foreman's chin.
i think rocky's height advantage over qawi will be more significant than his reach disadvantage compared to him.
if i'm wrong , even slightly , then how about punching foreman's body.
with today's gloves and foreman's fat body , i doubt if it will be effective enough , so i believe rocky gets stopped.

 

First of all, let's not make the immediate conclusion that Foreman would bomb out both Frazier and Marciano everytime based on one fight, what Foreman did to Frazier in 1973.

I think's it fair to say based on both the Frazier vs Foreman fights, that a FOTC or just prior to FOTC conditioned Frazier would provide George with a much, much tougher fight. It's quite obvious that he'd be faster and more difficult to hit, considering Ali said Frazier was one of the hardest fighters to hit cleanly. I'm not saying Frazier would beat Foreman, but prime for prime, I wouldn't put it past Frazier to get to Foreman's body early, taking some of the steam out of Big George's power shots and hurting Foreman en route to a possible late stoppage victory. The 1973 overweight, out of shape, lazy version of Frazier would get beat by quite a few heavyweights, not just the champions but some of the contenders alone. 1967 - FOTC Joe Frazier would be a tough assignment for any heavyweight, champion or contender. There are three champions that could potentially stop a prime Frazier early, but it's unlikely. Liston, Foreman and Lennox Lewis could stop the FOTC Frazier inside 5 rounds, all three having the power to do it. Lewis has the most boxing skills out of the three to knock out Frazier early, but he lacks the killer instinct. Doing it would be a different story because prime Frazier's head movement and body attack made him a tough fighter to hit and a tough fighter to avoid his own punches coming back.

With that being said, prime for prime, I think Marciano has a legit shot at beating Foreman if he can get past his early power. Prime Marciano would be easier for George to hit as opposed to prime Frazier. Marciano fought out of a low, stalking crouch and took some serious shots from Walcott, Charles and La Starza. Frazier's head was always moving, probably not for the best strategically sometimes in his career because there were times when Joe would move his head decisively without throwing back just to make the opponent miss. Still, both Marciano and Frazier were deadly fighters on the ropes and against Foreman, it would be a case of not standing and trading in moments where Foreman's on the ropes. Either way, Frazier and Marciano can't stand and trade with Foreman, power for power or they get knocked out. Frazier was smarter against Chuvalo who backed him up, only to see Joe use more jabs and counters off the angles, and side stepping, while not standing right in front of Chuvalo. Frazier stood right in front of Foreman believing that his ability and experience would win him the fight easy. Big mistake for both if they do.

 

2 fights out of 2 against foreman that ended the same imply that almost everytime will happen the same , something like 7(6):1(0) to foreman , with the jrazier's decision controversial. probably 8(8):0.

 

Naw......... I think Foreman's advanced weight and size did improve his durability to a degree......... Foreman never hit the floor at 250 to 260 pounds........ And Foreman took some vicious shots from "Cooney, Holy, Stewart, Morrison, Moorer & Savarese."

As for Marciano opening up on Foreman like round 7 of the Holy fight of '91, no way.... Holy had way more hand speed than Marciano ever dreamed of owning........ No way Marciano lands 10 to 20 unanswered shots upside Foreman head like Holy did in 1991......... AND! I am not so sure that Marciano would hit any harder than a solid as a rock 208 pound Holy could hit in 1991, either.......... Holy was a serious mo-fo in 1991 at 208 pounds...........

MR.BILLbbb

 

Well, Mr. Bill, I think you need to reconsider your rather rash and mistaken claim.

Holyfield only really KOed 5 of 20 some fighters. The rest of his KO total were mere TKOs. He only had a 50% KO and that is counting the TKO. I guess he is a pretty soft hitter. Most of his oppenents survived.

That little rascal Mariciano KOed 23 opponents out cold. His remaining 20 or so were TKOs.

Marciano had an overall KO percentage of 87% percent or so, counting the TKOs of which he had fewer than real KOs. And he never needed "enhancements" of any kind.

Good grief, Marciano just about KOed as many people as Holy fought all together!

I think that answers your question of who hit the hardest.

 

Holy was campaigning against 210-250lb heavyweights, Marciano campaigned against 180-200lb cruserweights, Holy fought far more top 10 ranked opposition, ofcourse Rocky should have a higher KO percentage even if they hit equally because smaller men are less durable and weaker plus Rocky faced less ranked opponents and didnt fight past his prime like Holy did. Now I do believe Marciano was the somewhat bigger hitter BUT Holy has more speed and reach to land his punches better, it doesnt matter how hard Rocky hits if he cant land first or at all

 

PowerPuncher, you've been around here for over 8200 posts. Don't you realize that Rocky Marciano operates in a different universe than the rest of boxing history ?

 

I think this might happen .

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Well, PowerPuncher, and He grant, I would say you ought to make yourself familiar with some elementary facts. I realize you both are mesmerized with size and big big muscles but such silliness leads you astray.

So big strong Holy, pumped up as he was, and fighting all those big big strong men, ( are you getting goose bumps just thinking about them?), well, Holy only knocked out, and I don't mean by TKO, 5 opponents.

You say he was fighting big men as compared to Rocky? Well, two of his pathetically few KOs were against men who weighed less than him and came in around 185. Another was around 190. Yes, he managed to knock out a couple of bigs guys, for example Douglas. But on the whole, that is not so.

And, PowerPuncher, on what grounds do you say that Marciano was a "bigger hitter" than Holy? Yes, I did notice the cute qualification of "somewhat."

I mean after all, Marciano weighed considerably less. And by your usual simple thinking as manifested on this site, Holy, being a much bigger man, ought to be hitting much harder.

So where did his power come from, PowerPuncher?

 

Marciano overwhelms the slick Archie Moore with an endless swarm of power punches coming from every angle imaginable.

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Holyfield/Foreman Round 7 (about 8 minute mark of video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz-LuXmm0us&feature=related


I see a marginal difference in hand speed with Marciano sustaining a much higher workrate in a more competitve fight against a quicker counter punching opponent who not only also has a great cross arm guard but crafty upper body movements. For a fighter with a reputation for being so slow, 80-100 punch rounds were nothing for Marciano once he got on a roll.