If Sonny Liston fought in the 1990's ....

I disagree. Look at him at 218 lbs here, he already sports somewhat of a belly (not a flat one anyway):

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It remains speculative whether he succesfully can or can not, but it's certain that it would slow his lack of speed down even further, as well as hinder his stamina... which we've never seen beyond 12 rounds in the first place. For instance, i think a guy like Joe Louis shows more potential to gain ~10lbs because he was an explicit 15 round fighter who was taller and more lanky.



But aside from that, fact remains that his usual size and strength advantage would vanish, and he'd take a big step up in class.

 

Lewis would go to town on him IMO, he would do ok for a few rounds with his jab but too slow and Lewis loved to beat up bullys
Lewis had big problems with Mercer but Mercer was better than Liston IMO and Lewis was pre-Manny, same in Bruno fight where he had trouble with a jab but was not in his prime.

Competitive fight with Holyfield, decision either way, probably Holyfield as a bit slicker

Would probably beat the likes of Morrison but old time heavyweights are overrated IMO, their physical attributes (except stamina) are of course way below todays but the so called 70-s golden era wasnt really that deep in heavyweight talent compared to todays so-called poor era.


Top contenders like Ken Norton werent really that skilful and Frazier was almost totally one-handed.

 

Is this serious? The 80's was as flacid an era as ever existed. Holmes occasionally showing his genius but mostly going through his bums, followed by the not so overwhelming blow-up Mike Spinks and rounded out by admittedly great Tyson feeding on mediocre fighters, fat-asses and drug addicts. Meanwhile, the contenders were, well, mediocre, fat ass drug addicts. But they were American, which should count as something right? The best mediocre fat-ass drug addicts in the world.

If nothing else, the 90's featured much harder hitters in the declining Tyson, Ruddock, Tua, Bowe, Morrison, Moorer, ancient Foreman and of course Lewis.

 

The current heavyweight era is not bad at all, you have some good African and East European fighters, and 2 of the best heavyweights (Klit Brothers) to ever lace up gloves. Its only a poor era for fans of American heavyweights.
The lower divisions are absolutely brimming with talent this last 10 years or so.
Sorry a bit off topic

 

I agree with Chris.

Adding additional weight would have likely hindered Liston's abilities more so than enhancing them. He was a big man no doubt, but he did not have the structural frame of a super heavyweight, which is exactly what he'd be up against in the 90's. Frankly, I think Evander Holyfield was a bigger man in the 210 Lb range. He was nearly 6'3, and at 210 lbs, was virtually all muscle mass without even so much as an ounce of additional baggage.

Liston enjoyed pounding on 190 Lb men for most of his career, as well as fighters who either sported a style that played into his hands, or just weren't that good. Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson, etc. were decent fighters, but they all had noticable limitations as seen in both their fights on film as well as in their records.

If Liston's prime had stretched from around 1990-1994, he'd be looking at a first tier group consisting of Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis. The second tier included George Foreman, Razor Ruddock, Michael Moorer, Tim Witherspoon, Tony Tucker, and Ray Mercer. No way does Liston make it through that gauntlet without suffering at least a few defeats, and frankly I don't see him being dominant at all..

 

true and good point about the age factor

 

vs. Holyfield: Liston TKO 8

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vs. Lewis: Liston KO 2

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vs. Tyson: Liston KO 5

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Bowe holds a press conference and throws his belt in the trash.

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vs. Golota: Liston KO1

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vs. Morrison: Liston KO 1

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vs. Foreman: Liston TKO 11 (Foreman disputes the stoppage)

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vs. Mercer: Liston UD 12 (Mercer feels he was robbed)

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vs. Tua: Liston UD 12 (Crowd violently jeers Tua's lackluster effort)

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vs. Moorer: Liston KO1 (arrested for murder after the fight)

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If Liston was born in the 90s, i think it would have changed the way many people think about things today. Particularly the evolutionists. Firstly, Liston would have been likely a light heavyweight champion through the late 90s, early 90s. Not necessarilly unified, but he would have got a shot at and taken apart more than a few alphabet holders in the era just after Spinks. I tend to think that he would get his shot at Tyson around about the Douglas fight, and like Douglas, he would simply be too good for this version of Tyson. From there, assuming that he outboxes Bowe and Lennox, which i think he would, then he would reign for quite a while, probably until tyson gets out of jail, at which time, i think he would beat Tyson. Holyfield would take the leap up to 3rd best of the era with a win over Tyson, and eventually Lewis would probably end his reign in a rematch, by which time, Liston would be getting on and Lewis, although coming into his own would be seen as being lucky to catch the aging champions, Holyfield, Tyson and Liston. After losing to liston, it is also quite likely that Liston makes the second phase of his comeback. Although he would probably eventually get KOd by one of the superheavys, i think it also likely that he would be the one who KOs Vlad in the same manner that Lamon Brewster or Even Corrie Sanders did.

If this all went down somewhere like this, then the best fighters in the socalled super heavy era would have been all 200-220 smaller fighters. I think that this would keep the evolution theorists in line, much like the small Prime version of Tyson did for a long time.

 

LOL, and then you woke up, Liston the Big Bear, so tough, quites TWICE against a green relative light punching Clay, even with cheating he could not get it done.

Big "Mafia" lol, enforcer, evil staredown ? If good ol' Sonny would be going to "enforce" aka run his mouth in the nineties Compton/Pacomia/South Central etc....he would be coming out in a bodybag. Fact not fiction.

Liston would be a contender in the 90's, thats it, maybe picking up a ABC belt but otherwise he will go good nite against the majority of your list.Slow as molasses with feet stuck not in mud but cement while going up against guys who are easily as skilled as himself,20-30 solid muscle heavier, can take a shot and are not fighting skinny middle/cruiserweights, lol, little Liston is going in for a rude surprise especially when he will get hit with power by big man like he has never felt before.................he will find a way out like in the Clay fights.

 

To me this is one of the deepest eras in heavyweight history.

You had the 'big four' of Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe. Then, you had a strong supporting cast of other belt holder or contenders like Big George, Bruno, McCall, Ruddock, Mercer, Morrison, Tua, Moorer, Briggs...the list goes on.

Certainly a formidable line-up. For the most part, a puncher's line-up. Even Holyfield, not maybe a true puncher, could certainly hurt you with accumulation. He rocked Bowe several times and stopped Tyson among other things...so he too could hurt you.

I do think Sonny would probably make his debut at around 208-210 pounds, and like guys like Mercer and others, eventually top out at around 225-235. In some ways it would certainly help him, but perhaps as noted above he could be a little slower too.

To be honest, I don't think he dominates like he did his own era. There is simply too much talent, too many bangers to emerge unscathed. He'd be a top 5 heavyweight sure, but for me it's hard to envision Liston walking through the likes of some of those guys listed above, and not picking up a loss here or there.

Put it this way - to have a decently long run as champ, he'd have to be matched carefully.

 

Regarding Liston's size, I don't see why he could not weigh around 225-235 if he were fighting today. Guys like Mercer, Morrison and Moorer all began at around 214 pounds, and ended up at least 10 pounds heavier as their careers progressed. Mercer was not a tall guy either, around 6'1", and he was well into the 220's as his career progressed.

Even Tua, who ended up a blubbery 245, made his debut in the low 200's.

One could be cynical and say that it was more a result of overeating than anything, but probably weight training and *ahem* other factors played a role too.

Liston was what? 212-214 at his heaviest...adding say, 10 extra pounds of muscle (if needed) in the 90's would not be a problem at all.

 

I like to go by facts rather than speculation, and fact is that he looked like this at 218 lbs.

Maybe, maybe not. You have picked a single measurement, which are never too reliable anyway. I could turn it around and say that his smaller waist is an indication that he was not as big a man as the likes you mentioned, who in turn are all a step or two below the 90's heavyweights in the same department.

No doubt they could be. But would it be of any help? As i said, he wasn't exactly a speed devil and would only add more mass to slow him down, for what are likely only marginal power/strength gains.

I think the "he'd be at xxx lbs" arguments are silly because they are purely speculation? Would Jack Johnson sport Vitali Klitschko's stature today, as he was a "giant" for his time? For me there's way too much speculation. We know the fighters as they are and that's all we can go by.

 

I don't really put much stock in biographies, but that Ring article sounds interesting. Do you have a copy of it?

Okay, i just think it's a silly game, for three reasons:

1. The measurements are unreliable at best and widely exaggerated at worst.
2. They don't say all that much. A while ago, someone here was showing that Charles and Dempsey were only one inch or so away from a superheavyweight like Lewis in most department.... thus they're nearly as big, etc. Of course that doesn't fly.
3. Some people can add and carry weight a lot better than others, when having identical initial dimensions.

Sure, and i don't doubt that Liston could add the weight, but how much would it improve him?

To extend your example: Griffith indeed added the weight, and certainly more than held his own at middleweight, but was he as good a middleweight as he was a welterweight?

Would a 225lbs Liston be as good against the big guys from the 90's as the 204-214lbs Liston was against the cruiserweights he beat in his own era, Williams aside?

That's fair. I guess i just don't like the "he would've been thiiis big today" stuff, as you may have noticed.










p.s. 1-0