Do Dempsey's Words Hold Any Water on The Willis Situation?

Jim Johnson wasn't too bad. He also gave Jack Johnson quite a fight from what I've read.

Jack Johnson also fought Jack Thompson when he was around 45 years of age. It was one of the most boring fights ever but Johnson won. Thompson during his career scored wins over Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, Sam McVea, Jeff Clark and Bill Tate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1Du1z8R_f8

Thompson on the right:

http://pro.corbis.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=U177432INP&caller=search

 

So what does that say about this whole situation then? The very location that the challenger wanted, which was supposed to be most ardently "in favor" of staging this match, turns around and bars the fight from that state?

All parties involved agreed that NY was the logical place to hold the fight. After that, the second best place was considered NJ, but that state barred the fight too. After that, Boston was considered another suitable choice, but that state barred it too. Numerous other states throughout the country either barred it, expressed reservations about it, or said they would only consider holding it if certain stipulations were met first (ie: California said they wanted to restrict the amount of money involved and the size of the fighters' purses).

I don't know what, if any factor the NY governor played in barring the fight, but I wouldn't believe he didn't purely because he denied having any intention to at some point. Other state officials said they wouldn't mess with the fight either and weren't true to their word.

What's the difference what their "excuse" is for killing the fight? Bottom line is they killed it, plain and simple - a fight which they had pushed for, and then would later mandate. It was an absolutely absurd move for which there's no rational justification. In fact, a day or so after the fight, Senator Walker even issued a statement concurring that the commissioner was wrong to bar the fight for any reason, and also indicated that his given "reason" for barring it was likely a lie anyway.

A couple of those very locations you listed had already barred the fight. As said, other locations in the midwest and west coast were looked at at some point, and officials there followed in NY's lead in either barring or expressing disfavor over the fight.

As far as what Rickard was "capable" of doing, just because he'd been able to pull it off before doesn't mean he was capable of doing it every time - nor should he (or anyone else) be expected to be able to. This is another example of how Dempsey and his people were/are being given far higher expectations for the making of this fight than is normal for other champions. They're being criticized for not bending over backwards or moving mountains to make a fight that should've been readily available to them from the beginning.

But their actions don't entirely bear out that bottom line. They didn't just avoid Wills' challenge, they signed to fight him, arranged a deal with him, and tried to set up a location. Saying, "They stayed away from him" and saying "They didn't go to the absolute utmost lengths possible to make the fight" are two different things. Their actions may support the latter, but not really the former.

Given all the states that ultimately turned down the fight, what states were still out there that were absolutely, positively, 100% guaranteed to hold it? Several states (in addition to NY), like Indiana and Michigan, had likewise said at one point that they would be "willing" to hold the fight, and then later acted to block it when it was put in their laps. And that's only what political influence we know of today in existing reports; who knows what else there might've been that can't be found just from reading what reports exist.

On top of that, not every state was simply capable in the first place of accommodating such a big fight and meeting the demands of both fighters (challenger as well as champion). For example, the Gibbons fight was able to happen in Montana because Gibbons agreed to fight for potentially nothing (which is what he ultimately got); would Wills have really been willing to do the same? That Wills' own people said NY or NJ were their own desired and most ideal locations for the fight says a lot.

What does that have to do with what commissions or state officials thought of the fight? Newspapers or their readers didn't have the final authority on staging fights, the officials did.

I wasn't even thinking about what "treatment" Dempsey might've gotten. Just the very idea that he even has to consider going out of the country at all for this fight is ludicrous. Another example of more expectations being put on him to make this fight than are normally for champions. There's been plenty of big fights throughout history that have fallen apart over far lesser obstacles than this one had.

 

Exactly.

Yep.

 

Really? I'd always read that Gibbons licked him pretty good in their first fight, and in fact their first two fights (although they were both officially newspaper decisions). It looks to me like the consensus view on their series was that they each won 2 fights, with each fight being decisive one way or the other.

 

Wills came into his own as a fighter after Johnson relinquished his title in 1915.

A strong fighter and big for his era, Harry Wills used his size to an advantage. Black boxing historian Kevin Smith said that Harry Wills' skills, “would be considered good for his day. His strength was his asset. He could move other men around the ring as he pleased. He couldn’t understand why he never did receive a title shot. He was considered the top contender for almost seven years. No number one contender could be ignored for that long today — but the racial tones of that time simply would not allow such a bout.

Kevin Smith added that Wills was at his best during the late teens and the early 20s. Smith tconsidered Wills one of the best between 1915-1922. As he declared, “Besides Dempsey, and an old (but still great) Langford, I can't see anyone who would be considered a favorite over Wills.”

Altough alot of the blame has to be put on Dempsey, lets not forget Rickard’s racism played a role in denying Wills his shot at the championship throughout his career aswell.

(Rickard’s impact can’t be underestimated. Rickard’s control of the sport in the 20s would make modern day promoters Don King and Bob Arum envious.

When Dempsey decided to go to Hollywood in 1923, the only real contenders were Tunney and Wills.

Roger Kahn says in his autobiography that Jack Dempsey was willing to fight Harry Wills. Dempsey signed contracts to fight Wills on two different occasions but reneged when finances failed to materialize.

Kahn says about Dempsey, “Not awed by Wills, Dempsey was afraid of something else: boxing without getting paid.”

Wills, six years older than Dempsey, was running out of time. Despite being the number one challenger for close to a decade, time was eroding Wills’ skills. The age factor started showing up when he lost to Sharkey and barely beat a raw Luis Firpo. Smith pointed out, “Wills was past his prime when he fought Sharkey and pretty much there against Firpo.” His loss to Sharkey and Basque contender Paolina Uzcudun in 1927 ended his chances for a title shot. In particular, his loss to Sharkey gave white promoters an excuse to end Wills' quest for the title. His narrow victory over Firpo merely confirmed in the minds of white writers and boxing analysts that Wills did not really deserve a chance at either Tunney or Dempsey. Grantland Rice summed up most reporters’ attitudes when he wrote about Wills after the Firpo fight, “Wills is not a fighter in Dempsey’s class, not even close.” (Roger Kahn pointed out in his biography on Jack Dempsey that Tex Rickard had many of the nation’s sport writers on his payroll. They merely echoed his thoughts about Wills’ inferiority as a boxer.)

While Dempsey never feared Wills, his managers did. Kevin Smith declared, "Many of the men who ran boxing thought that if Dempsey and Wills fought the latter would win and that is why the bout never took place. Wills was too much of a threat." Others are not as sure. Roger Kahn, Dempsey’s biographer, stated, “Harry Wills would have proved to be nothing more than another quick Dempsey knockout.”

What was lost in this debate is Harry Wills’ age. Harry Wills was six years older than Dempsey and as the 1920s began, Wills was already past 30 years of age. Many of the fights that eliminated Wills from serious competition occurred after Wills turned 35. Dempsey always had the advantage of youth on his side. Wills’ best years were already behind him, and if he proved to be an easy mark for Dempsey, his age would be the key factor

Kevin Smith summed up Wills' dilemma when he told me that, “The fact that Harry was black is about the only reason that he did not get a title shot.”

 

I've read some of your posts and your definitely too good for this forum. I cant wait to see how long it takes for the detailed replies to turn into irritated grunts like everyone else. Still its great stuff so far. :good

 

Everyone of your posts completely ignores the fact that this fight did not HAVE to take place in New York, that no official contract was ever signed in good faith by Dempsey, and that Wills was pursuing Dempsey (despite you saying that people here seem to think Dempsey should pursue Wills), Its almost as if you are trying to say it was Dempsey's job to run from and avoid a fight with Wills. The bottom line is neither he nor Kearns, nor Rickard ever EVER negotiated a bout with Wills in good faith. Deny that. You cant. As usual you ignore the jist of my points and nitpick at arguments that have no bearing on the overall discussion which is whether or not Dempsey ever tried to fight Wills. He didnt. Signing a contract with no date for the fight, no venue for the fight, and no purse, a contract which in fact only stipulated that in essence Dempsey didnt have to face Wills if he didnt want to, is no contract at all. If you choose to believe that then I have a bridge next to a beautiful piece of waterfront property Im sure you would love to buy... :deal Dempsey the man killer :roll: Who went 7 years without defending against his top challenger and dodged Greb for seven years while fighting his sloppy seconds. Yeah he was really a badass wasnt he:scaredas:

 

So exactly how many contracts did Dempsey sign to fight Wills?

I know of two personaly.

Lets try and work out the timeline here.

 

To be fair the Jersey City bout was sceduled for a nominal date of September 06 1924.

Of course you know this era better than anybody here and might have other reasons to doubt the sincerity of this offer.

 

Good idea. I'll try to get this started. If memory serves me right, I think I remember reading that Dempsey signed a contract to fight Wills sometime in 1922. Then in September, 1924 a fight between Dempsey and Wills was scheduled in Jersey City, New Jersey. Another contract was signed in September, 1925 but no fight was ever scheduled to my knowledge.