Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

look at how easy floyd patterson handles archie moore. marciano is well impressed in his commentary.

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Indeed, people forget how awesome pre-Liston Patterson was. Such crisp lighting quick combination punching from a heavy, reminds me very much of Tyson's flashes of offensive brillance during his heyday. I think Patterson's impossibly fast hands and accuracy made him a much better match up for Moore than Marciano who had to use dfficult angles and volume punching to ovecome the much quicker man. Not sure how this is a knock on Rocky though, Patterson and Marciano are the only fighters to stop Moore during his peak run as a Heavyweight contender and Light Heavyweight Champion. For the record, I have little doubt that this version of Patterson would have also overwhelmed old man Foreman..might be too reckless and anxious for the younger Foreman though as evident by his bad losses to Liston and Johansson.

 

Groove why dont you post Hurricane Jackson vs Patterson I and you will see how much trouble he has with a strong swarmer. not to mention every ATG puncher he faced knocked him out brutally. Floyd was great though and fought a great fight against a off Archie that night. Just dont compare floyd with marciano. rocky is one of the worst stylistic matchups for him. I think floyd has a chance against any boxer in history, thats how good he was. his skills combination of speed and power was deadly.

 

i was more interested in marciano's own commentary regarding patterson. he really rated him highly in that fight. this was only a year after marciano's fight with him. patterson looked good when he let his hands go, fast and nice angles. boxing or fighting is all about range, using angles and controlling distance so footwork is number 1 is my opinion. that's why most of the all-time greats had great footwork to control distance - check the names......

 

Archie was not off that night. Floyd was a differently different stylictic match up than Rocky for Archie. Floyd was a million times faster than Moore and Rocky and he beat him with the speed. Floyd was still made for Rocky though.

 

Umm Yes he was. Not only was Archie Moore screwed up mentally due to being part of a BlackMail scandal against him that certainly clouded his mind...but he was also declining physically and that hectic 11 fight schedule after taking a horrible beating from Marciano in 55 certainly did not help him come in Fresh and did nothing but irritate those old bones of his.

I would have liked to see Patterson vs Moore rematch...I think it would have been alot closer. Moore would have showed up properly trained, fresh, and would have known what to expect. If he caught floyd like some of those C level garbage did in his reign, Floyd would be in serious trouble.

 

Gotta give you credit for that one SQ, another Rocky classic. Moore was terrific for Marciano but tired and semi-shot for Patterson ... The fact that Patterson with his blazing speed was not a much tougher match up for Moore than the slower Marciano's straight ahead style had nothing to do with it I guess ?

Here's the facts; Moore was an old man for both bouts, still capable but past his best and flat out old.

 

Can't remember whether I've already posted or not nor have I read any previous comments, but in a Marciano vs Foreman matchup I see George stopping him within five. Bad match-up for Marciano IMO.

 

People try to make the Moore that Patterson beat to be inferior to the Moore Marciano beat just to make sense of the impressive way Patterson beat Moore, in the context of Patterson being (it is assumed) an "inferior" fighter overall to Marciano.

But styles make fights.

All this talk about Moore's hectic schedule, and the beating he took against Marciano, accounting for his inability to handle or compete with Patterson, is unconvincing because Moore's career stretched back 20 years of hectic schedules and coming back from tough fights and beatings. He'd declined by an extra year on an old man, but it's not a significant difference. He went on to beat several other decent fighters and continued to decline at a steady rate but not dramatically. Putting a dramatic leap in his decline between 1955 and 1956 is a fabrication, there's no evidence.
The old man Moore had the style and know-how to hit Marciano a fair few times and take a beating for 9 rounds, but nothing much to combat the speed of Patterson.

 

Disagree, If you look at the history of rockys opponents, there records going into the marciano fight drastically take a nose dive after taking beatings from rock. I thought Moore lacked alot of movement(particulary in his upperbody) in the patterson fight compared to the Marciano and Johnson fights in 54-55. I do think rocky took something out of moore by the time patterson got to him 1 1/2 years later. Moores best years to me on film looked to be 1951-1955. by 1956-57 moore really started to abandon his upperbody torso movement because his reflexes were starting to decay.

Never said it wasnt. All I said was Moore was being blackmailed by a friend and it affected him mentally. This is not opinion. This is an undeniable fact. Take it however you want. Patterson beat the **** out of moore. He showed up to fight, Moore did not. end of story. I do think a remach would be alot different.

 

This is obviously coming from a huge Moore fan:


Certainly a disputable opinion if there ever was one. When exactly would you consider Moore to be at his best?

He didn't win the Light Heavyweight title until he was 36 in 1952.

His greatest wins and performances were during his 51-55 run to Marciano; impressively defeating Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, Clarence Henry, and Bob Baker...peaking with 3 straight wins over Nino Valdes, Bobo Olson, and Harold Johnson before finally losing to Rocky. There is simply no evidence of him being on any decline, quite the opposite as he was hungry for the big money of the heavyweight title and improving with every fight.

Patterson and Marciano were simply great foils for him. Though he was never as consistent after Marciano, he still rebounded with some great wins where he looked like his 51-55 self.

Long after Patterson and Marciano....Moore's best performance on flim?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKQwO9QxM1M[/url]

 

Yeah, but Moore was able to suck-it-up and get back down to 175 for his epic '58 comeback win against Yvon Durrelle and he kicked Durrelle's ass easy in the rematch of 1959... Moore was great..........
:hey
NOW! By '62 against Clay in L.A. was another issue altogether.....:dead

MR.BILL

 

Oh come on ! How many rounds did Frazier win in the second fight with George?
You are talking as though the fact that he went into the fifth round is some kind of victory.
In fact how many rounds did Frazier win in both fights put together?

In analysing the chances of Marciano against Foreman ,people forget, or over look, that Frazier did land a couple of big left hooks on Georges whiskers ,result NOTHING."Was that thing his hook".
Foreman is all wrong for Marciano ,as he was for Frazier.George by mid rounds stoppage.

 

Guys, let's cut to the chase with both Moore and Walcott. Both still had plenty left when they fought Rocky. This was based on natural ability, styles and conditioning. However, neither was at their physical best in their late thirties. No way.

Walcott's career started to get traction in his mid-thirties so he was able to have better , more consistent training. He became the best conditioned Walcott of his career but not the physically best. He was not faster. He did not have better natural stamina. He was able to make the most of the skills he had left. The same with Archie Moore.

A perfect example is Bernard Hopkins today. He is not better than he was at 29 or 32. We know this because we have footage to prove it. However, like a Walcott or Moore , Hopkins has retained enough of his skills which include a very tricky defense with mastering distance to still beat certain world class styles. Straight ahead sluggers are an easier challange stylewise opposed to fast boxers.

The same Moore that fought Marciano fought Patterson. The difference was that at forty plus Archie had no answer for the speed and talent of Patterson.

 

By 1973, 213 to 215 pounds really wasn't all that bad for Frazier.......... Physically J.F. looked fine to me against Foreman, but he got caught early by Big George which led to a smoke job in Kingston, JA....

In 1976, Frazier was 224 against the 224 pound Foreman...... Frazier was too heavy there.... Frazier boxed okay for a round or two, but then he settled down and began getting tagged..... It was just a matter of time until Foreman lowered the boom in New York...

MR.BILLbbb