Do Dempsey's Words Hold Any Water on The Willis Situation?

You missed the point, good chap. The point was that there was no problem defending against a black man as witnessed by the Jim Johnson title bout.

 

Thanks Mate:good

 

Jim Johnson is listed as being 6'3" tall on both boxrec and cyberboxingzone.
McVey is usually recorded as a 5'10" man and I believe that to be fairly accurate (judging from his build and against other known boxers in photos).

But if that's McVey and Johnson in this film then that height for Johnson is WAY OFF.

 

The fight with Liston wouldn't have happened if Patterson hadn't made it happen, just like the fight with Wills would have happened if Dempsey had made it happen.

Patterson manned up, Dempsey didn't. End of story.

He gets knocked on like a long time champ ducking his two best challengers should get knocked. Especially if it's a popular champ that many have in their top 10. Holmes get knocked for the guys he avoided, but that is much lesss controversial for some reason. Johnson gets knocked for avoiding Langford and McVey, too. If he hadn't beaten them before I'd see it as every bit as serious.

 

Everything I've read suggests that Liston's criminal background and mob connections would have allowed Patterson to duck him indefinetely. Hell, he managed to duck "clean" and very deserving contenders like Machen and Folley long enough.

Also, there were media pressure from some parts on Dempsey taking on Wills.

Could that be because you're a Dempsey fan perhaps?

Look, I'm not saying anything else than that Dempsey probably did the risk/reward calls he felt were the soundest (or let his management do them for him). But in the process he avoided/ducked or whatever you want to call it the two best challengers during his reign, fighters who arguably were better HWs than anyone Dempsey beat.

Don't know why this has to be made so complicated.

 

I never "ignored" the fact that it didn't have to be in NY; half my post addresses the problems were being faced staging the fight in other states.

Yes I can, because that's purely your own take on events. The fact still is, they signed the contract. Saying, "They weren't going to fight him anyway even if the venues didn't fall through" is your own inference from it and purely speculative.

What you've shown doesn't prove that. At best, you've suggested that he didn't try as absolutely hard as he could of (which is what I said from the beginning anyway), but not that he didn't try at all. If anything your points actually do show that he did at least try.

Yes it is. It wasn't uncommon for fighters to sign to fight before they'd had the date or venue set up. You choose to interpret the "shortcomings" in the contract as "proof" that Dempsey's team weren't really going to fight Wills even if they both sides got what they were looking for; you could just as well say they were simply an acknowledgement of the very real obstacles the fight was going to face in staging it. Either way it's just speculation.

 

In Johnson's case I would point out that most of the offers put up for fights with the black dynamite trio were a fraction of those being put up for fights with the latest white hype.

I would be genuinely interested to see what would have happened if some promotor had put up $30 000 for a fight between Johnson and Langford around 1910.

By the same token you would have to be at least curious to see what would have happened if certain external forces had not sabotaged Jack Dempseys contracted fights with Harry Wills. Can we simply assume that he would always have sought some way out of his contractural obligations?

That is what I see missing in many posters here with regard to this issue. Curiosity.

 

I agree!

I would add that many posters here, sitting in front of their keyboards in 2009, seem to have absolutely no idea what things were like in the United States of America during the 1920's.

 

While we are on the subject, is it relevant that Wills, Dempsey and Greb all ducked their biggest money fight, the best challenger available in their era (arguably) and the lineal coloured champion and former long time undisputed world champion in Jack Johnson. If any of those fighters took that fight (age would assume it was an easy fight) then they would have greatly enhanced their own legacies.

 

Johnson and actually sparred a young Willis, here's the story..........

''One of those who worked with him during the hot afternoon sparring sessions was a very young Harry Willis. ''I was still growing'' Remembered Willis but I already had a right hand to the body that i thought i could hit anybody with. I was working with Johnson one day and sure enough, I nailed him....I got cocky and in the next round i tried the same thing again. Old Jack reached down and caught my fist like you catch a ball and grinned at his wife who was sitting at the ringside.''

Johnson was preparing for the Fireman Jim Flynn rematch.

 

What biggest money fight/best challenger did Greb duck?

 

Jack JOhnson. Jack didnt lose his first fight after the Willard loss until 1926. This gave Greb ample opportunity to fight Johnson. And imagine what this would have done to Grebs stock if he had stopped Johnson. I think it would definitely make a Greb Dempsey match the biggest draw available. I know there was probably no discussions, but if you were desperate to prove you are the world champion surely the JOhnson fight was a given.

Of course, the risk involved is massive. Not only was it possible that JOhnson was so good he might actually be too classy, if Greb (in particular) were to lose to Johnson his heavyweight credentials would be virtually zero. I know that Johnson didnt have the highest level of competition but it wasnt as bad as is suggested by many and the fact that an all time great would keep winning for so long and still not get a shot absolutely defies belief. That would be the equivalent of Mike tyson going undefeated for 10 years now but not getting another world title shot. Or Foreman never losing a fight but never being given a chance. Or Joe Louis never losing but never being given a rematch for the title. Remembering that Johnson wasnt just any world champ, he was one of the best ever if not the best. Nowadays, it only takes Andrew Golota or Hasim Rahman to string together 3 or 4 wins against average opponents and they are right back in the scene.

Dempsey should have fought Johnson, the fight just makes sense (even though we would probably be saying the result was inevitable). Likewise, Wills, espececially considering that Johnson was actually the lineal coloured champion, not Wills. Greb, i dont think was ever really a big enough heavyweight player, but certainly a johnson win had the potential to rocket him into the big time and he didnt make the fight happen.

Okay it isnt really a duck, but the point is that Johnson was a live challenger for all three that all three should have fought but didnt.

 

Dempsey was willing to face wills it just never happend,but i believe wills was made to order for dempsey-dempsey by ko within----------7