Please Participate--All-Time Middleweight Survey--POLL CLOSED!

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rumsfeld, Aug 25, 2009.


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  1. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,471
    15,799
    Jul 19, 2004
    I'll try and get more details up later tonight, but here's the basic results:

    1. 736 Carlos Monzon
    2. 718 Harry Greb
    3. 606 Marvin Hagler
    4. 513 Sugar Ray Robinson
    5. 214 Bernard Hopkins
    6. 155 Bob Fitzsimmons
    7. 140 Charles Burley
    8. 121 Stanley Ketchel
    9. 120 Mickey Walker
    10. 116 Dick Tiger

    Also getting votes:
    53 Roy Jones Junior
    47 Jake LaMotta
    45 Holman Williams
    32 Marcel Cerdan
    30 Tiger Flowers
    25 Sam Langford
    22 Freddie Steele
    17 Joey Giardello
    17 James Toney
    16 Tommy Ryan
    15 Emile Griffith
    13 Mike Gibbons
    13 Jack 'The Nonpareil' Dempsey
    8 Reggie Johnson
    5 Eddie Booker
    5 Teddy Yarosz
    4 Tony Zale
    4 Les Darcy
    3 Gene Fullmer
    2 Mike O'Dowd
    2 Nino Benvenuti
    2 Rodrigo Valdez
    2 Sugar Ray Leonard
    2 Randy Turpin
    1 Lloyd Marshall
    1 Tommy Hearns
     
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    #196
  2. essexboy

    essexboy The Cat Full Member

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    Jul 12, 2009
    Nice I cant help feeling Sugar Ray is a little high at fourth, I think theres other guys who deserve to be above him at middleweight, Hopkins is high as well. The top three are gonna be controversial, especially Hagler third. Im glad with the bottom half though those guys all deserve to be in, especially the underrated Burley. Right top ten might change the order by moving Robinson and Hopkins down, but its close enough. Only one its a shame to really leave out is LaMotta but its a division packed full of talent and he cant really replace anyone in the top ten.
     
    essexboy, Sep 22, 2009
    essexboy, Sep 22, 2009
    #197
  3. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,471
    15,799
    Jul 19, 2004
    1. 736 Carlos Monzon (13)
    2. 718 Harry Greb (15)
    3. 606 Marvin Hagler (8 )
    4. 513 Sugar Ray Robinson (5)
    5. 214 Bernard Hopkins
    6. 155 Bob Fitzsimmons (2)
    7. 140 Charles Burley
    8. 121 Stanley Ketchel
    9. 120 Mickey Walker
    10. 116 Dick Tiger
    11. 53 Roy Jones Junior (1)
    12. 47 Jake LaMotta
    13. 45 Holman Williams
    14. 32 Marcel Cerdan
    15. 30 Tiger Flowers
    16. 25 Sam Langford (1)
    17. 22 Freddie Steele
    18. 17 [tie] Joey Giardello
    18. 17 [tie] James Toney
    20. 16 Tommy Ryan
    21. 15 Emile Griffith
    22. 13 [tie] Mike Gibbons
    22. 13 [tie] Jack 'The Nonpareil' Dempsey
    24. 8 Reggie Johnson
    25. 5 [tie] Eddie Booker
    25. 5 [tie] Teddy Yarosz
    27. 4 [tie] Tony Zale
    27. 4 [tie] Les Darcy
    29. 3 Gene Fullmer
    30. 2 [tie] Mike O'Dowd
    30. 2 [tie] Nino Benvenuti
    30. 2 [tie] Rodrigo Valdez
    30. 2 [tie] Sugar Ray Leonard
    30. 2 [tie] Randy Turpin
    35. 1 [tie] Lloyd Marshall
    35. 1 [tie] Tommy Hearns

    36 Fighters received votes

    Here is the distribution of votes.
    TOTAL LISTS MADE - NAME - (1st-2nd-3rd-4-5-6-7-8-9-10)

    45 Carlos Monzon (13 16 10 3 2 1 0 0 0 0)
    42 Harry Greb (15 11 10 5 1 0 0 0 0 0)
    43 Marvin Hagler (8 8 10 15 2 0 0 0 0 0)
    44 Sugar Ray Robinson (5 7 9 10 6 4 1 0 1 1)
    39 Bernard Hopkins (0 0 2 5 7 9 5 2 4 5)
    22 Bob Fitzsimmons (2 1 1 0 3 6 1 6 0 2)
    30 Charles Burley (0 0 0 3 3 5 10 4 4 1)
    26 Stanley Ketchel (0 0 0 1 8 2 4 2 6 3)
    32 Mickey Walker (0 0 1 0 4 6 3 5 6 7)
    33 Dick Tiger (0 0 0 0 4 4 6 9 3 7)
    4 Roy Jones Junior (1 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0)
    19 Jake LaMotta (0 0 0 0 1 0 3 4 4 7)
    11 Holman Williams (0 0 0 0 1 3 3 3 0 1)
    9 Marcel Cerdan (0 0 0 1 0 2 0 3 0 3)
    12 Tiger Flowers (0 0 0 0 0 1 3 1 3 4)
    1 Sam Langford (1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
    4 Freddie Steele (0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1)
    6 Joey Giardello (0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 3 0)
    2 James Toney (0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
    3 Tommy Ryan (0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0)
    4 Emile Griffith (0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 2 0)
    2 Mike Gibbons (0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0)
    2 Jack 'The Nonpareil' Dempsey (0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0)
    1 Reggie Johnson (0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0)
    1 Eddie Booker (0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0)
    2 Teddy Yarosz (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1)
    2 Tony Zale (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0)
    1 Les Darcy (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0)
    1 Gene Fullmer (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0)
    1 Mike O'Dowd (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
    1 Nino Benvenuti (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
    1 Rodrigo Valdez (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
    1 Sugar Ray Leonard (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
    1 Randy Turpin (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
    1 Lloyd Marshall (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1)
    1 Tommy Hearns (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1)
     
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    #198
  4. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,471
    15,799
    Jul 19, 2004
    1. Carlos Monzon
    Total Lists: 45 (100%)
    First Place: 13 (28.9%)
    Top Three: 39 (86.7%)
    Top Five: 44 (97.8%)
    Average Points: 15.7

    2.Harry Greb
    Total Lists: 42 (93.3%)
    First Place: 15 (33.3%)
    Top Three: 36 (80.0%
    Top Five: 42 (93.3%)
    Average Points: 15.3

    3. Marvin Hagler
    Total Lists: 43 (95.6%)
    First Place: 8 (17.8%)
    Top Three: 26 (57.8%)
    Top Five: 43 (95.6%)
    Average Points: 12.9

    4. Sugar Ray Robinson
    Total Lists: 44 (97.8%)
    First Place: 5 (11.1%)
    Top Three: 21 (46.7%)
    Top Five: 37 (82.2%)
    Average Points: 10.9

    5. Bernard Hopkins
    Total Lists: 39 (86.7%)
    First Place: 0 (0%)
    Top Three: 2 (4.5%)
    Top Five: 14 (31.1%)
    Average Points: 4.6

    6. Bob Fitzsimmons
    Total Lists: 22 (48.9%)
    First Place: 2 (4.5%)
    Top Three: 4 (8.9%)
    Top Five: 7 (15.6%)
    Average Points: 3.3

    7. Charles Burley
    Total Lists: 30 (66.7%)
    First Place: 0 (0%)
    Top Three: 0 (0%)
    Top Five: 6 (13.3%)
    Average Points: 3.0

    8. Stanley Ketchel
    Total Lists: 26 (57.8%)
    First Place: 0 (0%)
    Top Three: 0 (0%)
    Top Five: 9 (20.0%)
    Average Points: 2.6

    9. Mickey Walker
    Total Lists: 32 (71.1%)
    First Place: 0 (0%)
    Top Three: 1 (2.2%)
    Top Five: 5 (11.1%)
    Average Points: 2.6

    10. Dick Tiger
    Total Lists: 33 (73.3%)
    First Place: 0 (0%)
    Top Three:0 (0%)
    Top Five: 4 (8.9%)
    Average Points: 2.5
     
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    #199
  5. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    4. Sugar Ray Robinson. I'm kind of suprised.
     
    ripcity, Sep 22, 2009
    ripcity, Sep 22, 2009
    #200
  6. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,471
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    Please elaborate.
     
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    Rumsfeld, Sep 22, 2009
    #201
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Mar 21, 2007
    Great list. Gutted Holman Williams missed out, but I think it turned out nice. Who are the three weridies that didn't put Harry Greb on their MW list? Probably they should be flayed.
     
    McGrain, Sep 23, 2009
    McGrain, Sep 23, 2009
    #202
  8. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,070
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    Nov 11, 2005
    Overrall the top 10 is excellent. The next 10 though are odd.

    Jones' brief career at the weight is considered superior to Lloyd Marshall, La Motta, Griffith, Benvenuti, Flowers???

    Come on, Ezzard Charles has a far superior MW record to Roy.

    I think his ranking at 11 is a real own goal.
     
    Ezzard, Sep 23, 2009
    Ezzard, Sep 23, 2009
    #203
  9. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Close between Monzon and Greb...very close. Monzon's lowest plaing was 6th, with Greb's being 5th.
    Greb also received more first place votes.

    Overall the list looks good.
     
    fists of fury, Sep 23, 2009
    fists of fury, Sep 23, 2009
    #204
  10. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'd agree, but since he's so fresh in people's minds, it's no real surprise.
     
    fists of fury, Sep 23, 2009
    fists of fury, Sep 23, 2009
    #205
  11. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    You're right.

    I think demographics always plays a big part in these lists.
     
    Ezzard, Sep 23, 2009
    Ezzard, Sep 23, 2009
    #206
  12. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It is almost blaphmay to rank Robinson as anything less than the greatest boxer who not only ever lived but will ever live. Yet there were 3 boxers who rank a head of him in this poll at 160. That is why I was suprised by Robinson being ranked #4 instead of #1.
     
    ripcity, Sep 23, 2009
    ripcity, Sep 23, 2009
    #207
  13. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    The greatest P4P boxer, not the greatest MW. Pretty simple distinction.
     
    Sweet Pea, Sep 23, 2009
    Sweet Pea, Sep 23, 2009
    #208
  14. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    True but Robinson split his career between 147 & 160 (there was no 154 as far as I know back than). With only two weight classes that he fought as. It seemes that he would rank higher than 4. 1 or a very close 2 was what I was expecting. It will be intresting to see how he ranks at 147 hear at ESB.
     
    ripcity, Sep 23, 2009
    ripcity, Sep 23, 2009
    #209
  15. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,471
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    Jul 19, 2004
    I am equally disturbed that two people omitted Hagler from their list. WTF?

    At least with Hagler, I mean, he should be fresher in the minds of those less knowledgeable.

    Other than that, I think the three lists we've done so far are pretty good.

    I think you, and the other regulars who are far more knowledgeable than me on the sport's history for your continued participation.

    :cheers

    I even plan to quote you in my article for this one, McGrain.

    :good
     
    Rumsfeld, Sep 23, 2009
    Rumsfeld, Sep 23, 2009
    #210
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