Please Participate--All-Time Welterweight Survey (POLL CLOSED!! )

Well, whether or not Moore was either old or just outta his league against "Patterson & Clay" in 1956 and '62, Moore never was fleet-footed, but rather well balanced........... Balance and fleet feet or two different things.......

I'm not sure in a time machine that an aged but FULLY CAPABLE 1952 version of Moore, who beat Joey Maxim in St. Louis, could beat a '68 version of Foster or a '83 version of Spinks at 175......... We already know that Charles was able to do so in the late 40s.................
:thumbsup

MR.BILL

 

Some points.....

Weren't the Clay and Moore fights at Heavyweight? Not sure they belong in our 175 pound chat. By the same criteria Spinks got slaughtered by Tyson and Foster by a few at heavyweight.

Clay and Patterson are close to the two fastest heavies in history.

Moore's career was finished vs Clay, it was his second to last fight of 220 fights and he was near 50 years old as well as being against a world class fledgling. Not sure i'd be looking at this footage and summing up Moore, personally :blood

You need to find some 175 fights and actually watch him perform.

 

I got Moore in his two fights with Yvon Durelle from 1958 / '59.... That was at 175, but Moore was always an old fart on film.......... My earliest tape of Moore is against Maxim in '52 at age 36...... I believe the date of '16 is more so legit than the earlier 1913 date.....

My other tapes of Moore are against "Marciano, Patty and Clay."


MR.BILL:deal

 

Ray is on top of nearly every list.

Nothing wrong with that, he was very, very good. but so were many, many other fighters. But, it is justifiable to rate others above him, it is after, probably the most competitive weight category of all. To think that one person is so much better than every one else is hard to believe. He was given plenty of tough fights in his career, and if he fought every fighter listed in this thread, he would surely have his share of fights. I think that most people tend to underestimate just how good it is to be ranked the third best welterweight of all time. As close as he is to it, Sugar ray was not a god, not even at welterweight.

 

I've got to admit I disagree. I feel Robinson is the best welterweight ever by a considerable margin. Put every prime welterweight in against each other and Robinson beats the lot for me. I dont think hes a God and I agree this is a very competitive weight division, probably the tightest so far I just dont think its competitive for the top spot. Robinson wins this division by a fair distance.

 

Those are fair comments. The non pareil was a name and nothing else. but there is no disputing that it was a bigger name than anything on Rays welterweight list?

If i am being 100% honest, there is virtually nothing in it, purely on legacy (not including media bias). Robinson was a great, great welterweight. But, Joe Louis was a great, great middleweight, carlos monzon a great, great middleweight etc. But, others have a chance of beating those greats, and there is no reason why others cant rate above them.

You say that Ryan does not make your top 10. But how can you justify this when he held the title as long as anyone until he retired and was never beaten by a welterweight, defended his title plenty of times and was pretty much the undisputed welterweight champion of his time.

Other than Robinson, who matches Ryan in these three areas? Or what are the other areas that these guys have a better record than Ryan?

 

1) Sugar Ray Robinson
2) Sugar Ray Leonard
3) Kid Gavilan
4) Rodriguez
5) Napoles
6) Armstrong
7) Griffith
8) Britton
9) Hearns
10) Joe Walcott

 

Each man makes his own choice ,I would not presume to tell anyone otherwise,just one point,Amos[Billy] Smith was champion when the weight class limit was 10st 2lbs [142lbs].It was not until Harry Lewis kod Honey Melody that the limit was raised to the English limit of 10st 7lbs [147lbs],Smith would be a small Welter by todays standards imo.

 

That is inconsequential, as the Dempsey he faced was nowhere near a prime or even capable version as you stated. Not to mention I'd have Gavilan (who was at or near prime for the Robinson fights, definitely the second anyway) well above him in a P4P sense anyway. What are Dempsey's big wins?

 

I like Kid Gavilan myself, however, he was a powder-puff-puncher..... So therefore, I'd have to rate Ray Leonard in front of Gavilan...... Sure, Gavilan had more fights, but Leonard was faster and more powerful.... I see Leonard beating Gavilan kinda' the same way he beat Willie Benitez in '79......

Note:

I've heard all the stories that Benitez only trained for "3" days to fight and defend against Leonard in 1979, but, I gotta say that Benitez was the most physically fit 147 pounder who was rumored to be outta shape that I have ever seen before..... Christ, talk about natural ability...... GEEZ!

Extra:

I think Hearns from '80 to '81 and Curry from '84 and '85 would be too big or powerful at 147 for Kid Gavilan, as well.........

Hearns was drained a tad by weighing 145 for Leonard. However, Hearns held up well for the first 12 rds damn good.. So good that he was winning the fight over Leonard... But, Leonard took control in round 13 with power-punching and aggression; something that Gavilan lacked against elite fighters....

Point is, I don't think Gavilan could've put the type of hurt on Hearns in the manner in which SRL did in 1981... So, I gotta assume that Hearns would've gone on to dance and pound his way to a 15 round victory against Gavilan, in a time machine...

And, while Curry fell hard and was also drained at 147 in late 1986 against Lloyd Honeyghan, he was a master and a big 147 pounder with great power in 1984 / '85......

Curry SHOULD have vacated the 147 lb. division after his Spring of '86 flash KO over unheralded Ed Rodriguez and gone to 154 pounds to test the water there.......

Kid Gavilan was great; no doubt.... However, against solid welters with finess and power, I see Gavilan in trouble........

MR.BILL:hey

 

I don't agree that Gvilan was a 'powderpuff puncher' MrBill. It's clear to see he could really bludgeon you with some shots, and I think his low K.O% is due to the fact that fights were able to go on much longer. So whilst he was no banger, I think he was on the lvel of a puncher as say, Fighting Harada. He hit solid but couldn't spark you clean, his iron chin and multi-faceted approach more than make up for that though :good