Was Butterbean any worse than some of the contenders today?

When did I ever say Hatton? I said Floyd would.

 

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149931&highlight=kid+gavilan+hatton

 

Oh dear.

PugilisticPower, although he often does write with a little bit of flare, has a very clear agenda against the older generation of fighters. His reasons for claiming Arreola would be that competitive in the 70s is simply laughable. I like Arreola, I consider myself a fan, but if anything, Cristobal undermines everything Pugilistic believes about Boxing. Does this Mexican-American Heavyweight contender really represent an evolution in the fistic arts? I'm skeptical.

 

Like I said, I said Floyd would beat him.

I said Hatton/Berto/Phillips/Forrest and Spinks would be a good fight. And **** it, I think the Hatton that roughed Tszyu up would beat Gavilan too.

 

I quite enjoy PugilisticPower's style and conviction in his posts..some of the notions he challenges are worthy of discussion.

But yes he certainly has an agenda and I really dont like it when people get all matter of fact when its clear they just havent bothered to do the research.

 

The reasons Arreola would be competitive in the 70s.

His size is huge.

Most guys of that era were lucky to break 6 foot and were in around the 210-220 pound range. The guys that were bigger were dominating the division, the Ali's, Foremans and Nortons - while the boxers of the division - Frazier, was struggling against the size advantage.

His workrate for his size is not bad at all, while he didn't land against Klitschko, you can't fault the effort, the guy came all night, took bombs from Klitschko (6'8, 250lbs of muscle, highest KO percentage of any HW champ) and didn't go down once, wasn't staggered either.

So he's going to pressure you all night and his chin isn't questionable.

His skills aren't so bad that he can be considered a bum boxer, either, the guy possesses good footwork for his size and when he throws, he throws in combinations.

Just because a 6'8 Ukranian giant with superb anticipation, power and conditioning was able to dominate him, doesn't make him a bum.

That's what you need to realise, before you continue your agenda against the HW division of this era.

 

I view him as the General Forum's RedRooster. His opinions are outlandish at best, but his conviction almost makes them seem credible. I say almost.

 

My main problem with that thread you made is the whole Gavilan gets "sparked inside 5 rounds" comment...a comment you stuck by and wouldnt reconsider.

Its frankly just a silly and uneducated statement.

 

:-( You have ZERO credability.

 

Look at the pure facts in sports outside of boxing.

Performance has increased in every single sport, the ability athletes have to prepare themselves and recover (something American fighters don't take advantage of, admittedly) has increased, the ability to analyse your opponents and break down minor imperfections in their style has increased a shitload.

Fight science itself has increased in that time frame, cross training conditioning has become far more important.

Size is now much bigger and with that size is explosive agility owing to training developed to help assist that.

Take a look at the difference in UFC today vs UFC 10 years ago for the development in a short space of time.

The reason we can compare so easily in UFC is that fight footage, statistics and such are better recorded in the last 10 years than they were.

Anyone believing that the older generation possessed better fighters on average than the newer generation is crazy.

Once in a generation fighters are always going to be competitive. I don't see Ali being beaten if he boiled down to 190-200 and campaigned as a cruiserweight, but against the SHW? He doesn't have a price.

Likewise, very few are ever going to be anywhere near as good as RJJ was.

But in the case of HW's? More so than any other division, the advantages of training techniques today, analysis of the old era and the size with which the new guys fight means they're without question as good, probably better than the era before them.

Gavilan lost to fighters much worse than Hatton - do you dispute that?

 

hahaha, owned :good To PugilisticPower, What sort of ****** says that Ricky Hatton would beat Kid Gavilan? thats like saying a pair beats a royal flush in poker, its not happening! you obviously no **** all about boxing mate.

 

No, Butterbean got outboxed by lower level journeyman, he made the best he could out of his boxing run. He's just a big man with a big punch and little in the way of skill except for a knowledge of the basics and experience.

 

:smh

 

6'3 would have been big for a Heavyweight by the 70's standards, but size isn't the only determining factor for success in Boxing. His hand speed is limited at best, he doesn't have a consistent jab, which is his only effective way of offsetting his opponent to muscle his way on the inside. He wasn't as exposed by Vitali, because he'd already looked so vulnerable against a C level Heavyweight in Travis Walker. His defense leaves a lot to be desired, but his heart should never be questioned. You're quite right.

Foreman was just a really bad style match-up for Frazier, and I remember Joe being very successful against a 6'3 Muhammad Ali in '71? Frazier often chopped down bigger opposition. Foster, Matthis, and Bugner were all 6'3 plus but they didn't have the skills required to beat a prime Joe Frazier. You clearly put too much stock in size, and forget that skills pay the bills.

Klitschko has the highest KO percentage of any Heavyweight champion because he didn't have to contend with great Heavyweight opposition like Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier. The division used to consist of in shape athletes, who could fight, and nowadays it seems to be a cesspool for overweight, ill-trained, average Prizefighters who bore the spectators to tears. I'm not necessarily talking of the Klitschko's in that.

It was before the Vitali fight. Perhaps it's Vitali's power that is overestimated? Walker could hurt Arreola and even score a knockdown.

Nobody called Arreola a bum, I'm just not about to say he'd be a top level Heavyweight in the divisions most competitive era. He's still an inexperienced campaigner for Christ sake, with his best win coming against McCline. Oh, hold on, he's 6'6 so that must mean McCline would have dominated in the 70s. This seems to be your mentality, Puglistic.

 

Watch fights outside of this fight to judge Arreola. The fact that he "didn't have a consistent jab" against a guy who had such a huge reach advantage isn't surprising.

The fact that he had to get on the inside against Vitali, means nothing against 99% of the fighters Arreola would face in the 70s, he didn't need to get on the inside against his other opponents, either.

And because he looked hurtable against Travis Walker, we should downgrade him? What do you know, Floyd becomes a bum for being staggered by Chop Chop, Lennox Lewis becomes a bum for being KO'ed by Rahman, Ali himself becomes a bum due to his issues with Henry Cooper.

Foreman was a huge guy with power, but quite slow moving with his footwork, utilised his height advantage to barnstorm opponents, put the shoulder down to pin them to the ropes and corner and go to work on the body.

He possessed Herculean power, which carried through into his next stab at boxing, but he was never a great technician, his speed wasn't there and until his second stab, you can't say he had much of a brain for boxing.

Size in that situation was a huge advantage for Foreman, because he had the attributes ( Power, Chin, Go forward style) to make it count.

Bugner, Matthis and Foster were not guys you could claim as being massively powerful, massively conditioned or co-ordinated. Arreola can claim Power and Co-Ordination.

You realise every single fight Ali had wasn't against Frazier/Foreman/Liston right? The fact that no other HW comes close to Vitali's KO percentage can be taken as a good indication that Vitali has stopping power as good as anyone else in the sport, let alone his 6'8 physique.

The idea that today has no in shape athletes who can fight is also pretty funny, just because the marquee American fighters are overweight food addicts who don't put the work in.

Did he finish Arreola? or did Arreola finish him? Walker that is. Nuff said. People with unquestionable chins sometimes get put down/hurt. Joe Calzaghe's chin was pretty damn solid judging by punches he took over his career, didn't stop him going down 5-6 times in his career.

Watch fights outside of this fight to judge Arreola. The fact that he "didn't have a consistent jab" against a guy who had such a huge reach advantage isn't surprising.

The fact that he had to get on the inside against Vitali, means nothing against 99% of the fighters Arreola would face in the 70s, he didn't need to get on the inside against his other opponents, either.

And because he looked hurtable against Travis Walker, we should downgrade him? What do you know, Floyd becomes a bum for being staggered by Chop Chop, Lennox Lewis becomes a bum for being KO'ed by Rahman, Ali himself becomes a bum due to his issues with Henry Cooper.

Foreman was a huge guy with power, but quite slow moving with his footwork, utilised his height advantage to barnstorm opponents, put the shoulder down to pin them to the ropes and corner and go to work on the body.

He possessed Herculean power, which carried through into his next stab at boxing, but he was never a great technician, his speed wasn't there and until his second stab, you can't say he had much of a brain for boxing.

Size in that situation was a huge advantage for Foreman, because he had the attributes ( Power, Chin, Go forward style) to make it count.

Bugner, Matthis and Foster were not guys you could claim as being massively powerful, massively conditioned or co-ordinated. Arreola can claim that.

You realise every single fight Ali had wasn't against Frazier/Foreman/Liston right? The fact that no other HW comes close to Vitali's KO percentage can be taken as a good indication that Vitali has stopping power as good as anyone else in the sport, let alone his 6'8 physique.

The idea that today has no in shape athletes who can fight is also pretty funny, just because the marquee American fighters are overweight food addicts who don't put the work in.

You're judging Arreola solely on how he attempted to solve the Klitschko puzzle. I'm telling you now, that's an irrelevant judgement of the guys fighting skills, it's like saying "Bernard Hopkins and James Toney can't box because they were dominated by RJJ"