Hagler always called out welterweights, but when a bigger fighter called him out

I think this is a good point. I never would have believed Toney could go to Light Heavy, Cruiser, and Heavy ! He wasn't a big middleweight either. I wouldn't bet on Hagler beating Spinks but I don't think it would have been a huge upset either. An upset yes, but not a shocker. I'd pick Spinks on points, but it wouldn't be impossible to imagine Hagler outworking him with faster hands and side to side. Would have been very interesting to see how the Spinks Jinx would have fared against the Hagler chin.

 

Roldan was 5 foot 8 in ,an inch and a half shorter than 5 foot 9 1/2in Hagler.

 

My understanding is that the Romans had settlements up in what was then known to them as Caledonia and these were invaded by Picts. At times they sent out sorties from Newcastle... which is unsurprising when one considers that many of these settlements were full of veteran soldiers. Information travelled slowly but Hadrian, knowing that the Picts, moving south, were going to continue to cause problems to Roman property, ordered the wall to be erected.

I think that was circa 120 AD

 

He launched one big campaign towards the end of his lifte north of the province they controlled, into today's Scotland. Disease and guerilla warfare sunk it badly, though. I won't take on the mantle of a scholar here, since I saw it on Viasat History. No serious knowledge behind it.

But, anyway, your point is true. Hagler was probably wise not to venture out of the domain he dominated, just like Monzon didn't.

But the thread starter is also right that Leonard shouldn't be critized for actually doing so. Sure, he played the angles, but he still did it.

 

Hagler don't look that tall to me.

But what about Obel and Hearns. Were they 5 foot 8?

 

I wonder how this Thread about Hagler got kidnapped by Leonard

Anyway, there are lot of sources (credibles or not) about how Duran was out of shape for the II Leonard fight. Sure Leonard took advantage of that, but that is part of the game, and at the end of the day, it was Duran's fault for let himself down.

Anyway, somebody asked for sources. I don't know how credible is Randy Gordon, but sure he makes for an interesting reading:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/310/mas-version/

Some extracts:

"Through July, Leonard sulked and brooded. Duran ate and partied. It was at the end of July that I was invited to a party Duran was throwing in a New York City restaurant. When I saw the newly crowned, still-celebrating welterweight king, my mouth dropped open in surprise. The legendary 135-pound terror, who was now atop the world's 147-pounders, weighed no less than 165 pounds. The dedication he had shown in training for Leonard had been replaced by an insatiable appetite for fast days, even faster nights and women who were even faster than that."

.....

"In August, Janks Morton called Leonard and told him to get back to the gym. He told
Leonard that Duran was blowing up like a balloon. Morton recalls telling Leonard, "Listen, this guy (Duran) is getting fat. I'm told he's around 180 and climbing. Why don't we get back in the gym for a few weeks and begin thinking about Duran again. You can meet him again this year and we both know you can beat him, even on his best day. We'll see just how soon the fight can be made. How 'bout it?"

Leonard, a fierce competitor, had heard all he had to hear. His month of sulking and depression had come to an end. "Let's go to work," Leonard said. "I've got a score to settle with Duran."

...

"Three days before the bout, Leonard checked his weight in the morning. It was 147. Duran also checked his. It was 157. As he stepped off the scale, Duran wore a confused, dismayed and disoriented look, as if he were snapping out of a hypnotic trance. In Spanish, he said, "No es posible!" ("This is not possible!") The reality of the situation finally hit him. He had to lose 10 pounds. He had to do so in 72 hours. Given Leonard's superb physical condition and Duran's lack of it, Duran's chances of victory were reduced to microscopic, at best."

.....

"Not losing those 10 pounds, not making the welterweight limit of 147, would mean forfeiture of the WBC title. The rules were simple: If Duran came in overweight, the fight would still go on. A Leonard victory would make Leonard the champion once again. However, if an overweight Duran won, the WBC would declare the title vacant. Duran had to lose the 10 pounds. He was in a situation and in a place he had never been in before. Duran was trapped in a corner"

 

He's the MAN:bbb

I read this way way back & could'nt find it again, it was also in an old Box Ill/KO/Ring, Burt Sugar wrote something similar at his shock at Duran's weight, Burt has always said that the Duran management stuffed Duran like a thanksgiving turkey, they did what ever it took too get their hands on the $9million, they injected him with laxitives even amphetamines.

 

Cut the crap the question is valid hagler never moved up in wieght FACT.

Funny that people criticize Hopkins for fighting Trinidad and DLH when hopkins eventually did move up in weight and became a lhw champion but Halger gets a pass for staying at mw.

 

Well only after he got beat by Taylor twice and really didn't have anywhere else to go but into retirement if he didn't move up.

 

Hagler simply wasn't a big-framed middleweight. About 5'8 or 5'9 with broad shoulders and ripped muscles but narrow in the chest and hips, small-boned in the limbs.

Look at him versus bigger or tall middleweights :

Briscoe

This content is protected

Obelmejias
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3R5pFxUoDo

Hart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCqGUGhUgh0

Roldan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjaWRlLXvZo&feature=related

v. "welterweight" Hearns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuYclaefqPQ

v. "welterweight" Leonard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlbgOXxTxHQ&feature=related

v. "lightweight" Duran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHpyEIEld8A&feature=related

 

However tall Hagler looks to you 5 foot 9 1/2ins is his given height.
You said Roldan was a" huge middle weight ", I pointed out he was 5 foot 8 ins.
Obelmijas was 6 foot and 1/2in, what has that to do with Roldan?

 

Good stuff. Leonard shouldn't be critized for challenging Hagler, but his win absolutely warrants an asterisk for several reasons.

 

Hagler was not the kind of middle who had anything to bring to 175lbs and Spinks was not just your ordinary 175lber like Mike Rossman or Mate Pavlov or even Tarver...back in the 60's middleweights moved up to light heavy with success because they were better skilled...Tiger,Torres,etc but Foster came along.....Marvin was 160lb fighter as was Monzon and Carlos would be giving away advantages that he enjoyed as a tall or strong middleweight vs Foster....Greb was a standout and a freak but a matured Tunney got the best of him also....Hopkins was a starved middleweight and he looks great at 175lbs, because that is his natural weight and the weight he started with as a pro.....Mavin nor Carlos would have had success vs the Lightheavys that reined in there era

 

It's not as impressive as if he had moved up against a prime Hagler and beat him clearly over 15 (i e what Duran did against Leonard), but impressive nonetheless.

Shows how great Duran was really, on a sidenote. His wins over Leonard and Barkley... These were just fights he had no business winning. He did it in style as well.

 

Look I have not read the whole thread but have a few thoughts ...

Leonard: One of the greatest fighters that EVER lived. Also a manipulative, mean spirited egomaniac. Of course he manipulated his exceptional box office appeal. So did Oscar a generation later. Same old story, the gold rules.

Hagler: A great warrior but he knew his limitations as did Monzon. The bigger and easier money fights were to let the little guys with huge names come to him. He was not beating Spinks or Braxton, no way. He could have been competitive with the rest but he did not want it. He knew he was a middleweight . In fact, Marvin likely could have made and fought at 154 if he choose to. He was 157 for the Leonard fight.