Wlad Klitschko vs Max Baer

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Flea Man, Oct 5, 2009.


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  1. time lost

    time lost Member Full Member

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    chagaev shook him?:huh
     
    time lost, Oct 5, 2009
    time lost, Oct 5, 2009
    #16
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He'd just lost the title, he was just over a year from the skids and he quit on his ass, something not in keeping with Baer, in my opinion.

    He'd already utterly destroyed a boxer puncher in Schmeling. He wasn't able to make much of Baer's low guard. In fact, it's said Schmeling turned down the title shot when Max held it such was his surity he couldn't win.


    Braddock had an iron jaw and versatility. Things Wlad doesn't have. Also, I object to the "even" monicur. Braddock was a very good fighter when he took on Baer.

    I think this is probably bang on.


    I don't think he would like it at all. But predicting boxing is, as you know, about assigning variables and taking a deep breath. I much prefer Baer's durability to Wlad's organisation when rushed against a persistant rusher, extremely hard puncher with a vastly superior chin. I'm happy in the pick.
     
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    #17
  3. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    He was only one year away from his peak, and like i said, reports going in where that he was training VERY hard and had all the motivation to beat this young kid in order to get his title back, eventually.

    Utterly destroyed? I had Schmeling (slightly) ahead before he got KO'd. Schmeling just stepped up from lightheavyweight and wasn't the most durable guy to begin with, having several first round KO losses to unknown and/or unrated boxers. Good win for Baer though.


    On the other hand, Wlad isn't a former lightheavyweight with 10 losses in a row or so, and is better in just about every area except for chin - and remind me - how many fights against 210+lbs heavyweights did Braddock have? Wlad has 51. Dito for Baer?


    Alright. All i'm saying is that durability is an overrated (and i hate that word) quality. How far did Tua's durability get him against Lewis? Byrd's against Wlad? Tyson's against Douglas? Chuvalo's against Frazier or Foreman? Qualities like boxing ability, defence, footwork, size and speed are at least as important, and Wlad easily excels in all of them, compared to Baer. And again, Baer's durability and other physical traits are great compared to the heavyweights of his time, but they were mostly under or around 200lbs. This is a different ballpark.
     
    ChrisPontius, Oct 5, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Oct 5, 2009
    #18
  4. Bad_Intentions

    Bad_Intentions Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If Baer trains really hard, then i can see him winning this fight...

    He has a rock/solid chin, and good power....while Wlad has a semi-good chin, but has skills.

    but if this is A SERIOUS MOTIVATED-WELL TRAINED BAER....Baer TKO 10th.
     
    Bad_Intentions, Oct 5, 2009
    Bad_Intentions, Oct 5, 2009
    #19
  5. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but I'm going with Wladimir Klitschko, and for many of the same reasons that Chris Pontius has already touched upon.. No need to repeat them.
     
    mr. magoo, Oct 5, 2009
    mr. magoo, Oct 5, 2009
    #20
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well we agree he was past his prime and we agree (based upon your prediction) that he wouldn't quit to Klitschko like he quit to Louis (despite your seeing a similar one-sided beating) so we see enough differences between the best version and the version that fought Louis to agree that he was not at his best.


    Beat, rather than destroyed then, but the point is in Schmeling he beat a capable, respected (generally) top 20 HW box-puncher, so i don't think he's as "automatically" vulnerable as you've made out.




    Facts and figures in support of your fighter's size don't change his vulnerability to massive punchers, which Baer is in my opinion, and doesn't change his discomfort at being attacked, which Wlad suffers in my opinion.

    As to your points about Braddock's previous, i've said it a million times; Braddock was not the same fighter that "lost ten in a row". He was a different prospect. He was an excellent fighter in a way he wasn't previously. His record supports this.





    Points taken. But what I meant with that sweeping statement was this - i'm much more confident that Baer can absorb Wlad's punches longer than Wlad can stay out of trouble. Wlad is knockoutable. That's why he's become so masterful in terms of controlling range and pace. He won't be able to control either against Baer becuase Baer doens't give a ****. I also have my suspicions that Wlad isn't going to be able to deal, mentally, with losing control over these things, though that is a hunch.

    Add these things up and you have my path to a pick of Baer by KO. I don't insist it is the right pick, i've been wrong before (standout pics from last year inlcude Hatton over Pacquio and Mijares over Darchiniyan) but i'm comfortable with this one. I'd have Wlad ahead when he goes down for the las time. Just like Schmeling ;)
     
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    #21
  7. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Alright, well, neither of us is going to convince the other, so let's agree to disagree. Work time. :mad:
     
    ChrisPontius, Oct 5, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Oct 5, 2009
    #22
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Are you not some sort of student :lol: I sort of presumed that for some reason :lol:
     
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    #23
  9. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A top form Baer has a punchers chance but overall Vlad has the far better skills and was a much better big man than Primo, I think the fight would be a TKO in prime Vlads favor but if Baer was filling in for Sanders that day he may have been able to duplicate....the present version of Vlad would more than likely score a shutout before the stop
     
    Bummy Davis, Oct 5, 2009
    Bummy Davis, Oct 5, 2009
    #24
  10. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Few things; mcgrains penultimate paragraph is the exact reason I think Baer stands a fine chance of stopping Wlad. 2nd thing, the back and firth analystic debate between MCG and Pontius is the exact reason I started the thread, it's an intriguing matchup and has created a good snare without any flaming!!! The reason I live in the classic, cheers lads
     
    Flea Man, Oct 5, 2009
    Flea Man, Oct 5, 2009
    #25
  11. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Wlad is a huge favorite but if Baer is highly motivated, focused and conditioned he has a shot. His power, stamina and reach would be factors. Let's not forget Max himself had an 80 plus inch wingspan. He was no little man. He would have to fight the fight of his life. Wlad's chin is weak and Baer could seriously hurt him with his wild style.
     
    he grant, Oct 5, 2009
    he grant, Oct 5, 2009
    #26
  12. Zakman

    Zakman ESB's Chinchecker Full Member

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    This will probably be a controversial pick, but I think Baer has a good chance to knock Wlad out, presuming he's able to get a solid shot in.

    If Klitschko is able to avoid getting hit solidly, he wins a wide UD. But I don't think he'd be able to do that for the full 12, let alone 15.

    Baer by late KO
     
    Zakman, Oct 5, 2009
    Zakman, Oct 5, 2009
    #27
  13. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Reading through the previous posts you will see it is not that controversial, some think it already :good
     
    Flea Man, Oct 5, 2009
    Flea Man, Oct 5, 2009
    #28
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think it's something around 4 apiece thus far.
     
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    McGrain, Oct 5, 2009
    #29
  15. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    It's one of those matches though isn't it. Not only would Wlad have to put up with punches, I think it's Baer steaming into him that is going to make him panic.


    Now, even with extra poundage I don't think Wlad is as devastating a hitter as Joe Louis. There, I said it. Wlad can box to order but Baer isn't really going to care. However, even with his chin, there's a chance his free wheelin style may see him square on get hit with that beast of a right hand.

    I honestly think that if Wlad lands the right hand that felled Chagaev, Baer could be lights out, regardless of his chin, it's the way he walks onto punches at times.

    The ferocious exchange towards the end of round 1 (I THINK!) against Louis shows Baer, whilst sloppy and wide at (most) times, could flurry with some speed and trade under immense power.

    Wlad's height, reach and (fantastic) dictating of range may play a part in this becoming more difficult, but Max was mad, he would just charge Wlad if need be.

    Another thing is that Wlad likes to get into a pattern of blocking his opponents best weapons, stripping them down before stopping them. Dissecting. This is in part to Manny Stewards tactics I assume, but how would he help him fight Baer. 'When he wings in one of his hooks shoot a straight down the middle', because with Baer swining I think Wlad is gonna find it hard to time him; to a modern figher Baer would be seriously unpredictable, he'd throw a short right to move you then wing a big left hook in, or stand off before using his full reach to launch a bomb from either side. Wlad's maintaining of range may not be as useful here.

    There is a very good chance of course that Wlad's jab and ability to keep to a plan with his hands high, size and sheer weight would see Barer outmuscled and outgunned. Baer was strong for his day but Wlad Klitschko is a hi-tec boxer; he's a mean machine, and it's not just down to chopping wood and being tough as Hell.

    Personally I think Baer is a nightmare style match for Wlad, but the variables make it be that Baer might just be easy picking for Wlad in a stinker.

    That's what makes it an interesting thread IMO and I've enjoyed everyones comments so far:good
     
    Flea Man, Oct 5, 2009
    Flea Man, Oct 5, 2009
    #30
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