Joe Louis vs. Vitali Klitschko

Thks.

I think you are on point. I would say the dominance of the other sports in the US has been met with a reduction in the number of gyms, opportunities, and interest and support for boxing, both amateur and professional, relative to the past. With less demand you end up with a smaller supply of boxing "educators" or coaches.

Then, you add to the mix a less motivated and simply less talented pupil/athlete and the result is going to be very disappointing and confounding to boxing purists and/or those that can recall better times.

Perhaps it differs by country or region, but clearly in the US the best athletes have not been pursuing boxing as youths and there has been little to no support for boxing to allow for an education which is incentive for the best athletes to take up the other sports (especially as kids cannot choose to pursue anything without some kind of support either from their parents or from an educational institution). Other countries may well have more supportive opportunities for state sponsored athletic careers.

What is also telling just on the face of it, is the number of cut, well-conditioned, high stamina, focused athletes in the other major US sports while, almost without exception, an American heavyweight is exactly as you describe "a slow, immobile plodder" to which we can add - often of limited technical ability and boxing education.


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I've never understood these attempts to compare the present to the past. When athletes are too many years apart there seems like there are so many other variables involved usually related to the improvement in living standards that allows for a much greater number than in the past to dedicate their life to an endeavor so that I don't know how you "adjust" or take into account their effect.

Does the older era fighter receive the often high-tech conditioning approaches, sport medicine, and nutritional supplementation? Or, is the current era fighter forced to persist in an entirely different environment than he now experiences?

And then, what about the direct influence certain relative "ground-breakers" provided to the development and education of those that came later? How can we look at a Lennox Lewis or Roy Jones, Jr., or Sugar Ray Leonard, for example, and ignore what they learned of watching an Ali?

I have a family member that always says that "the old female stars were so much prettier than the current ones" noting Elizabeth Taylor, Marilyn Monroe, Grace Kelly, Gina Lollobrigida, etc., etc. However, there must be many many more "attractive" people today because it is a bigger world in which the passage of time has allowed for more and more to live comfortably and healthily.

In many sports where a physical time or distance is involved it can be somewhat easier to reach a determination about the accomplishments of the past vis-a-vis the present. Of course, physical combat may well be the one area where it is far less easy to make that same claim.

I am sure that being taller, heavier, and/or longer is a size advantage. A size advantage places a great burden upon the smaller man in most physical combat. It is better to have it than not have it at the very least. All things being equal - a great big man beats a great small man - which is the reason we have classes or divisions I presume.

If you are transporting JL to the present for a mythical matchup then must he remain at 200-210 lbs as he was in the 1940s? He was 6'2". Are we gonna treat him like he was in the 1940s? Perhaps he would be more like an Ibeabuchi with 2009 supplementation, nutritional knowledge, and modern conditioning preparation. Who can really say, or say what is fair to allow for this battle between eras?

If JL can receive what is available to current fighter's then he could/should be favored to overcome the Klit's super size - especially as I am not at all a believer that these are the current era athletes with the most optimal skill or attribute set possible.

Anyway, off to sleep, nice speaking to ya.

 

Au contraire, the pleasure was all mine. :good

 

Fists of Fury,

Let us reason here with films and news paper reports.

Vitali is a man who's never lost more than 2 consensus rounds in any of his 40 professional fights! He's never been down, has a good defense, and throws a lot of punches. To make it even more difficult Vitali owns a huge higeht and reach advantage over most, and uses it to the max.

I have seen ever Joe Louis fight on film, minus the Uzcudun fight. To be frank Louis slow feet, lack of defense, and lack of changing tactics cost him multiple rounds.

Let's examine:

Schmeling won more rounds than Louis did by a mile in their two fights.

Walcott won more rounds than Louis did in the two fight series, and was way up in the 2nd fight until he got cute, then paid for it.

Chalres really made Louis look bad.

A very small, and there to be hit Tommy Farr won 5-6 rounds vs. Louis.

Arturo Godoy did enough to win the first fight with Louis. Its on film, Louis is completely dumbfounded by Godoy's movement, and mauling tactics.

Bob Pastor really made Louis look bad and won several rounds.

Billy Conn did the same, and though he was KO'd Conn who was 168 pounds was up on the score cards.

These are the good boxers that Louis fought, and in no way were any of them as hard to out box as Vitali is.

Sure Louis could knock a cemented footed guy who lacked defense into next week, but when he fought someone with skills, who can move around a bit, and jab....Louis needed either crooked judging or a KO to win.

Sorry, Louis will never get past Vitali's jab, and his chin won't hold up to too many of VK's right hands or hook either.

How does Louis win a decision? I just don't see it. As fr Vitali, he can adapt in fights by opting to box and move, slug, tie up his man, or counter depending on how he needs to fight.

 

Well, certainly I would never mean to suggest that there isn't any American nationalistic pulse. And, your related point at the end is not one I would completely dismiss.

But, let me address the first example you mentioned regarding Arreola. You said, "look at the amount of hype Arreola got just for being American". Now, I can't speak for what you saw in Europe (assuming you are still in Holland) but I can tell you what I saw being in both California (with a substantive Hispanic population) and in Las Vegas (the sort of fight capital some might say for the US). Boxing is simply off the radar screen. There was no abundance of advertising. There was no country-wide distribution of attention - there was almost nothing here (nothing extraordinary or substantive anyway). Even the Vegas papers (sport pages) - of which there are two main ones - gave it only the same normal write up all major fights receive - nothing more - nothing less. Frankly, the fight was a complete non-event.

The US is simply not overly interested in boxing and hasn't been for a good while. Arreola is a COMPLETE, COMPLETE UNKNOWN. NO ONE on the street would have ANY idea who he is or what he does for a living.

As for David Haye, the problem isn't his nationality per se, it is that he is also COMPLETELY UNKNOWN. No one over here has EVER seen him fight. If you put him on television most would guess he was a new actor not a fighter.

That said, my point was to try and take into account or address those secondary points related to race that often seem to be (wrongly) promulgated as reasons why the Klits aren't popular over here. This country continues to have its own racial issues that will persist for a long, long time (a problem similar to most nations which differ only in its detail or specifics). But, it is and remains, in a crude description, "a primarily white nation". If the Klitschkos, Kessler, Calzaghe, etc., etc., had come over and astounded (or come over and astound) with unparalleled athletic skill and competence they would be lauded, applauded, and credited. Race is not a detriment to being placed upon a pedestal in this entertainment starved/driven country. Neither is nationality on the whole.

Sure, being from certain specific groups (e.g., an Al-Qaeda supporting athlete) would not be advantageous to success in this current period - but that is incredibly extreme situation affecting no one I am aware of.

It is probably true that a mediocre non-US athlete isn't going to find any kind of reception here. Perhaps at home he could still receive some play. But, excellence in anything - and from anywhere - is still EXCELLENCE.

I agree that US participation in boxing is essential to the sport. That is because I know there is a large number of gifted, talented, dedicated athletes over here that are being well-paid and avidly watched. Because it hasn't happened, it is difficult to imagine a throng of boxing assassins coming to our TV screens from abroad with exciting devastation and thrilling impact. I can only say that, generally, the US would accord it well if that occurred - without there needing to be a US origination. Surely though it would attract many of our own back to the sport if it really delivered such awesome entertainment.


Cheers.

 

That's because the rematch lasted less than a round. I wouldn't say that a shutout decision over Schmeling would have been any more impressive.

He wasn't "way" up. The referee had it 5-2 to Louis and the two judges had it 5-4 and 6-3 to Walcott.

An aging Louis who hadn't fought professionally in two years, didn't train much and only came back to pay off his taxes.

I wouldn't say 6'1, 205 pounds is very small. Farr actually wasn't there to be hit either. He was very cagey and was never stopped in his prime.

All I saw was Godoy holding on and ducking low to avoid Louis's punches. He was slaughtered in the rematch.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Cp2TVw_Q0[/ame]

Louis landed all the eye-catching punches. Clean punching is the name of the game, not punching the heck out of another man's shoulders and arms.

Pastor fought well but I didn't give him too many rounds. Louis looked pretty good in the rematch in my view, Pastor's blatant running made the first fight a terrible affair.

Contrary to the popular myth Louis could have still evened up the cards had he won the last couple of rounds as he seemingly would have since Conn was spent. The rematch was no match but Conn didn't have his legs.

 

TheGreatA has already engaged some of your points, so there is no need to go over that again.

I'll ask you this: Do you really believe that those impressive statistics would hold up in the 90's or even 80's? The 70's?

The way you talk Mendoza, Vitali is the best, if not the greatest, heavyweight of all time. I'm sorry, I'm not buying that. Not by a long shot.
The way I see it, he is a good fighter that has profited from a weak era, and an era where multiple belts are on offer.

Some food for thought: In an era with one world champion per division, Wlad would be the champion and Vitali would be the number one contender. Yes, the can afford not to fight each other now, but what would they have done in an era where you have to beat the man, to be the man?
Only in an era such as this could they afford to monopolise the division.

 

As Fists Of Fury has said ,you have corrected Mendoza's points.
Farr was not a small heavy .Louis was a tired man when he fought Charles.Louis destroyed Godoy in the rematch.etc..
If he thinks Vitali beats Louis ,fine ,but dont try and prove it with bull****.

 

Okay, I can at least digest that notion.......

MR.BILL

 

I just don't know there.... The USA still has a fair amount of fans / citizens against Ukrainian / Russian fighters who speak broken English... Its political propaganda........
:shock:

MR.BILL

 

Like Joe Louis didn't fight in a weak era! Every boxing era had tomato cans and undeserving beltholders. Louis never fought any1 skills and size of Vitali. + with his chin he would get stopped.

 

Mendoza did make a valid point in saying that V.K. rarely ever loses a round / rds in his fights....... Stemming from the "Lewis" fight of 2003 to his recent massacre over Arreola last week, Klitschko has fought over 50 pro rds and has lost only perhaps 4 of them rds.... And the interim guys V.K. stopped like "Johnson, Sanders, Williams, Peter & Gomez" aren't exactly what I would refer to as pussies, either.......

MR.BILL

 

Put it this way, if Joe Louis fought Danny Williams it wouldn't take him **** knows how many kd's and rounds to stop him. And I recognise just how tough Danny Williams was, but there's no doubt; Vitali is NOT a big puncher.

Okay, Louis never had the greatest chin. I know this, he was dropped by Tony Galento, who looks a bit like what would happen if James Toney tried to imitate Prime Roy Jones in his next fight :rofl

Louis was dropped by a man who really shouldn't have dropped him. It was a sneaky shot, yes, but Louis WAS better than that. And whilst Schmeling was not a big hitter, Louis rectified that in the rematch (Wlad gets this free pass for the Brewster match, and Vitali gets a share for beating Sanders from some) but considering Vitali couldn't K.O the Lewis that Rahman did I think it's safe to say it's accumulation from a big man that gets his opponents out of there, not power.

Now, I actually picked Vitali to win because I do think he has enough weight and speed behind his punches to outbox and stop Louis late.

HOWEVER; Vitali is quite repetitive at times. The right hook to the body (effective) is an obvious one. Regardless of height disadvanatges, rest and assured the timing of Louis could see him through to a punch that hurt Vitali, and Louis is as good a finisher as the division has ever seen.

I'm not sold on Vitali. Regardless of his weaker chin I consider Wlad to be the superior fighter. I think only his bulk falling onto Lewis (and Lewis' fatigue at throwing all his energy into that uppercut) stopped Vitali going down from either that uppercut or a sloppy barrage that would've followed it as Vitali stumbled onto Lewis.

Joe Louis would be at a serious weight disadvantage here but he was one of the best compact punchers ever seen on film. Fast and with accurate combos, I don't think it's out of the question Louis sparks Vitali clean.

However, I lean towards Vitali, for the aforementioned reasons. As with baer (even though Louis is much, much better) in the proposed fantasy matchup with Wlad, Louis may never get past the jab.

Although you have to believe a fighter of Louis' calibre would not be lacklustre or have his aggression dampened by the imposing figure and awkward style of Vitali.

Interesting matchup :good

 

Danny Williams was not a ***** in 2003 / '04......... Williams had his act together during that frame and was training hard........ Williams took some thunderous shots from Tyson before lowering the boom on the faded ex-champion.... Still, fact is, Tyson still had power in '03 and he landed upside Williams' head real good during the 4 rds they fought..... Christ, give Williams some credit for being tuff there....... Twisted knee or not, Tyson used it as an excuse.... When Tyson was down and out in rd 4, it appeared he was more so tired and burned out from bombing Williams, rather than whining to the ref that his knee was hurt.... Real fishy there........ The knee excuse seemed to get solidified in the locker room after the fact that Tyson had LOST!

As for Danny Williams' challenge to V.K. on HBO PPV in 2004, well, Williams was just about done in round 1 for cryin' out loud..... It took a whole lotta' courage, heart and conditioning to keep pressing Klit while taking a real battering during that better than expected title fight.... Hell, Klit bounced Williams up and down off the floor like a basketball before the fight ended in around the 9th stanza.......

This jibberish that V.K. cannot punch worth a **** is utter bull****....... The dude is seriously mean and badass in the ring........ I give a flying duck, I rate V.K. in my top-10 list of ATG heavyweight champs....... I have him placed at # 6 or 7 pending on what mood I'm in...... But I still contend that V.K. could fight and hold his own with any former champ stemming from 1887 to 2009.......... V.K. may indeed lose a few fights to some of the former champs in a time machine, however, I feel he'd also win several of them dream fights as well......... V.K. is great...........

MR.BILL:bbbthumbsup:hi:

 

Yeah but you LOVE Vitali to be fair. I DID try to give a fair assessment :good