Joe Louis vs. Vitali Klitschko

i have only seen him in the baer and louis fights and if you cant see fights for yourself then you can only go on what you can read

 

Yep, and that's what can sometimes lead one to the wrong impression.

 

It is not about resume or legacy so much. Louis has one of the greatest legacies in the history of the division. But had Klit fought some of the guys Louis made defenses against- Roper, Paycheck, even B. Baer, he would have been laughed out of the division. Different times/different athletes.

And if you can't see the brilliance of VIt's style, perhaps you should stick with the lighter divisions. It is a big man's style, not a Floyd Mayweather style, not even a Holyfield style. He is masterful at it, also. Manny Steward can see it. Freddie Roach can see it. His record proves it. In addition to his command of distance and pace through use of his height and length, his reflexes are still first rate at 38.

Louis never fought someone who had this particular set of attributes. Carnera, a converted circus performer, not particularly athletically endowed, was not even close. Vit is superb athlete trained in the combative arts since an early age in a structured, intense environment. No comparison.

Either way you come down on this argument, it remains a legitimate argument. To insist otherwise reveals a woeful, uninformed bias.

 

:good

 

One poster in particular.

 

Motivated and supposedly shot Shavers is much better than Arreola. The rest isn't even worth responding too, especially the Spinks crap which is clear that Holmes wasn't in the best of the shape, getting older, and was caught being lazy. Spinks is better than anyone on Vitali's resume by tenfolds. In fact, his performance against Spinks in the rematch in and of itself is reason enough to rank him ahead of Vitali. Don't compare the two.

 

:happy

 

Patent bull****. The Shavers that Holmes fought went on to beat no one of note for the rest of his career. Coming into the VitKlit fight, Arreola's previous 6 opponents were 161-25, with 14 of these losses being tough journeyman Cliff Crouser. Arreola stopped each opponent and won a sanctioned eliminator fight for the right to match up for the title. Your contention is ludicrous. Your patent and illogical bias in this situation makes all your arguments suspect, for me at least.

And for the record, I would take Vitali KO7 Spinks.

 

:rofl

Shavers gave Ali hell and some say beat him. Even an older Ali, this is quite a feat. He Knocked Norton out in 1 round. This was a highly motivated Shavers. Shavers didn't have the durability but he hit like a truck. Arreola blows when you going to face the obvious. He played catcher and is tailor made for anyone who can move. Arreola plods slower than an old 48 year old Foreman does... Holmes would have embarrassed Chris far worse than Vitali did. Anyone with eyes can see that. Arreola is a top 3 resume on for Vitali because his era and comp/resume suck. Arreola doing well in the slow, out of shape, fat era proves nothing. Arreola hasn't faced a real top 5-8 fighter anyway.

Holmes would own Vitali in a time-machine fight. Holmes is a great champion that proved much more. Vitali has a worse resume, is a worse boxer, fought in a worse era, and doesn't have the consistency nor longevity to prove his worth as unbelievable all time great. Louis would spark him big time. All your jack **** excuses about his technical deficiencies and flaws is all bull**** because his opposition sucks so much he can get away with it. This "It works for a big man" and "You don't see it" is all silly. As if gravity doesn't apply to Vitali? GTFO. Yeah, the brilliant range-control of the lean forward-lean back man. He has no credence to say he beats Louis.

 

Holmes has a significant edge in quantity, but i don't think the difference in quality is all that large.

This is true. Vitali isn't champion, but aside from his brother (one boxer) he is not avoiding anyone. Holmes avoided or failed to make seven fights, of which at least a few should've materialized.

Sorry but these are excuses.

An injured arm and a flu-like virus? You hear these things all the time. It's not like Holmes wasn't using his arms against Norton or seemed bothered in any way.

Holmes was fighting regularly, but mostly against nobodies. Witherspoon had only had 14 fights and was considered easy money... when he turned out not to be, Holmes was nowhere to be found for the rematch. Weaver, at a great 19-8 (and people are complaining about Vitali fighting 27-0 Arreola), was exactly the same story... as well as with the Truth.

True, his actual achievements are very good, but don't compare to how he's regarded in a head-to-head sense. A bit like Dempsey.

 

I think the best Holmes beat is better than those Vitali beat. Who are the best Vitali beat ?
If quantity and quality both fall Holmes' way, that's significant edge in how the should be rated.

Yes. He's not even champion.
The champion is his brother Wladimir, who established his claim over the last 3-4 years.
True, Holmes ducked some fights. He was the champion though, and I think an undisputed number 1 in the division for at least the first 5 years of his 7 year reign.

But we're comparing Holmes to Vitali.
Vitali pulled out of fights with excuses, took 4 whole years off. You brought up that Holmes struggled with X, Y and Z, but there's no reason to believe Vitali could have fought such a schedule without struggling with a few and using an excuse or two. Which would have been an improvement on what really happened - ie. Vitali not fighting at all and not building up any sort of body of work comparable.
I could say Gene Tunney never struggled in a championship fight like Joe Louis did in some of his, and dominated his opponents, but it's a non-starter as an attempt to raise Tunney up to Louis.
It's ridiculous to compare Vitali to Holmes at this stage.

His championship achievements are ordinary.

Lost Lennox Lewis
bt Corrie Sanders
bt Danny Williams

LAYOFF

*
bt Sam Peter * (2nd rated fighter in the world, clearly behind number 1)
bt JC Gomez *
bt Chris Areola *

* As far as I can tell, the consensus is that Wladimir Klitschko is the real champion while Vitali made these last three appearances.

 

I wonder why the topic here has shifted away from Louis and moved to Holmes and Ali's. Could it be Louis competition was not as good and he struggled too often? I think so.

I agree that Holmes beat better fighters than Vitali did, but he also struggled more that Vitali did, and in some cases picked easier title opponents while he was champion. Some say Holmes avoided matches with Page. Maybe for a 1.5 year time frame, but I can't think of anyone out there not named Klitschko that Vitali won't fight.

 

No, I think it's because Holmes can perhaps be considered a "partial" champion, not undisputed.
I think Louis has a better record than Holmes.

When Vitali gets to 15+ title defences we can start counting up the times he struggled and assessing the amount of easy opponents he picked, in comparing him to Holmes. Until then, it's not worth mentioning that as a knock against Holmes.

Which means :
Either,
1. Wladimir Klitschko is the champion, and Vitali isn't.

2. They are both half-champions at best, and avoiding each other.