Reality check - Ken Norton

It is getting more and more over hyped, probably because of the devastating fashion each KO was in. Not too many people can get destroyed better than Norton did against Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney.

Ken's chin wasn't china, he took some good shots from Ali and Holmes, who weren't massive hitters, but they could still hurt/drop you with 1 punch. A probably I noticed with Norton when he fougth Cooney, Foreman, and Shavers was when he got tagged hard, he tightened up, then got hit again which is what dropped/KO'd him. I think his main problem was he wasn't good at surviving when hurt. But then again, they were some huge punchers who only a handful of people can survive against when hurt.

 

Yep, a big shot froze Kenny in his track.

 

Yeah, and the punchers were ferocious fighters too. I'd be less inclined to think Wlad, also a big puncher, could take him out as it was bruising sluggers who get to Kenny.

 

If you're going to excuse Norton of his fights in which he was KO'd but over the hill, you can hardly read much into the Quarry fight. Quarry was well on the slide as early as 1973 and by 1975 was hopelessly shot.

Duane Bobick had a high KO percentage against poor opposition. The thing to read into that fight is that Norton could beat punchers of a middling level, provided he landed his bombs first.

I think the problem for Norton wasn't so much punchers as going backwards. Norton's defence, which was so brilliant on the front foot, was porous on the back foot. Then, if you pin Norton on the ropes, you've got him. I don't think Norton had a bad chin (below average, but not a BAD chin) but he did have a limited defence and it was that fact which made him vulnerable to sluggers. He also had a tough time with swarmers apparentely: Frazier had absolutely no problems with Norton in sparring or so the story goes.

It's a good point that Norton wouldn't lose to every puncher, as some people think; on the other hand, take a hard aggressive puncher and I'd back him to beat Norton.

 

Wlad in his early years would have knocked Kenny the **** out early. Now, it would have taken awhile, but he still woud have stopped Norton.

 

Norton has a good chance if he can take Lyle in deep. It depends how aggressive Lyle is in the first 2-3 rounds: if he comes out behind a hard jab and throws some big rights, I give him a good chance of stopping Norton. On the other hand, Lyle could be very vulnerable when he got tired and he did often decide to move about rather than plant his feet and bang.

Still, I suspect Lyle would win by stoppage in rounds 2-4.

 

Norton's style offered chances for big punchers. Shavers, Foreman were tailormade.

 

The 1 thing about Nortons KO losses is they were all KO artists, some of the hardest hitters in history, and all threw a tonn of punches to get him out of there alongisde chasing him down to mid-close range where his defense isnt too good.

So combinations, with massive power and aggression (ie going forward looking for the KO) and make it a bit of an inside/mid range fight where Norton isnt as defensively savy.

Punchers that fought at range and arent as aggressive aren't necessarily going to get the job done because Nortons defense at range is far far better.

Norton would do well against the likes of Vitali who likes to fight at range, doesn't go for the KO and has the same flaws as Ali, and hasnt got massive 1 punch power. He'd do terribly against Tyson. Against smaller weaker men who I don't consider as bigger punchers like Marciano/Dempsey/Patterson he might do well as he can impose his size on them.

 

I still think he's not durable at all, when faced with a heavy handed hitter. He was great at taking lighter damage, hence Ali & Holmes having such a hard time, but by no means is going many rounds with those two necessarily a sign of a good chin, especially when you're more than a match in the skill department for them.


One might say he was old for Shavers and Cooney, and he was, but the thing to note is how easily he was destroyed within a single round. By comparison, Ali in a similar stage of his career, went the full 15 with Shavers. Now i'm not saying that should be the standard, but often times, durability stays with the boxer when skill and reflexes have long lost left them... just ask Holmes, Mercer, Foreman, etc.


Also, the fact that he wasn't KO'd during his peak (actually, he was, by the first punch that Foreman connected with), doesn't show that he DID survive a big hitter. Quarry was never really that much of a puncher and a shot fighter when Norton got to him. Bobick had a nice KO record, but never touched Norton, so that doesn't tell us much, either.


I think he sort of had the Frank Bruno problem, in that he'd freeze a bit when a bomb landed, plus he wasn't good on the backfoot or when pressured. Or let me put it this way: he was unproportionally bad when backing up, compared to how outstanding he was on the front foot.



In the end, he never proved to be able to take a slugger's punch, and when faced with punchers, regardless of whether he was green/old (apparently he went from one to the other in a 6 year time period), he folded and folded badly. To me that closes the book on his chin, which is below average for a heavyweight and far below average compared to his skills.

 

Yes...exactly. I agree..that's the essence of Ken Norton, and his Achilles Heel as a fighter.:deal

 

His chin was a bit flakey.

But Ali couldn't knock him out in 3 attempts.
Lyle, Bonavena and Foreman couldn't go the distance with Ali once.

Chins get dented at heavyweight.

 

Good Post...True

 

Exactly.

Also, even though he was in his mid 30s when he fought Shavers, he was still arguably in his prime only a year or two earlier, and was still a legit top contender when he fought Shavers. I do believe the Shavers fight pretty much ruined him, but going into it he was not that much past his prime IMO. Ali was much more faded when he fought Shavers, and I'd say Quarry was more faded when Norton fought him. Also, let's not forget that Shavers was in his early or mid 30s as well.