Joe Fraziers defense.

No Dempsey was.

 

In his prime, Joe Frazier wasnt an easy man to hit, he`d constantly move his head, make you miss & make you pay.

 

A side note.............How much does Quick Tillis look like Bernie Mack in the video lol

 

Nice Post ChrisPontius.

I will add that a prime Frazier, even though his opponents landed a boatload of punches against him as you say, did make these same opponents miss alot of punches in the first couple of rounds also. People forget that Frazier, although a slow starter, was hard to hit because of the speed of his head movement and how it helped him with his body attack. For this very reason alone is why I'd favour Frazier against Tyson, Dempsey and Marciano, prime for prime. Another factor to consider is endurance and stamina alone, where only Marciano and maybe Dempsey can compare. The general consensus with Frazier is that within his style, he's willing to eat punches in order to get close and land his own. This isn't always true because Frazier did parry shots against these same fighters while moving his head, bobbing and weaving. Surprisingly against Foreman in 1973, he used more shoulder slipping in the first few minutes as opposed to the ducking and weaving he did against previous opponentes

You are absolutely correct though about the head movement regarding Frazier, Tyson and Dempsey. Joe was more about rhythm and landing his punches at a controlled yet increasing pace whereas Tyson and Dempsey used more shoulder slipping off the jab to set up body hooks. Tyson is the only heavyweight, I've seen use the double slip effectively. I've never seen Dempsey or Marciano use the double slip. Tyson used this almost to perfection, starting out sometimes with a shoulder slip to the left, then immediately slipping to his right, coming across the opponents body to throw a hard straight right or left hook.

 

Ali threw many of the same uppercuts in the FOTC and missed Frazier that Foreman threw and landed.

Nobody seems to mention the difference in the quality of fighter that Frazier was between 1966 - 1970, as opposed to the fighter who showed up in Jamaica.

Once again, I'm not saying that Frazier would beat Foreman, but I think it's fair to suggest that the fighter who showed up to defend against Foreman in 1973 would have been beat by quite of a few of the big punching heavyweights in history, Liston, Lennox Lewis, Joe Louis and perhaps Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, maybe Tyson. This certainly wasn't the best version of Frazier that Foreman fought.

FOTC conditioned or prior to FOTC Joe Frazier wouldn't be an easy fight for George Foreman or any of the other big punchers in the history of the sport. In fact, past five rounds, I'd put the fight in Frazier's favour.

 

Not to rain on your Smoking Joe Parade but you're seemingly agreeing and disagree with Chris. You say his opponents landed a boatload of punches against him, and then say that although a slow started was still to hard to head because of the speed of his head-movement. Sounds sort of contradictory. This boatload wouldn't be enough for the power of guys like Tyson and Marciano and perhaps even Dempsey to beat him. If you agree that they land a lot on him, then how does he survive Tyson or Marciano's power. Anyway, I think Tyson's head-movement was faster. You'd get more flack from people saying Frazier would beat Tyson, Dempsey, and Marciano from others than from me. I think he beats Dempsey, but loses to Marciano and Tyson. Most think that he loses to them all. Also, Dempsey's stamina isn't on Frazier's level. I think Frazier has proven his stamina to be superior. Dempsey was a fast-starting bomber, that tired a bit more in the later rounds. The punishment he put on people made him fine in the end of fights. Marciano though, is definitely superior in Frazier. I still think you discredit Marciano in that area, but again alas that's twenty discussions from in the past.

No. And when he did throw uppercuts occasional it caught him. Remember Joe Frazier hurt big time via 9th round?

Lyle, but maybe Tyson? You're really stretching it. Most people think those guys would beat Frazier at his best, excluding Shavers and Lyle.

Does Joe buy an a better chin? Joe could take sustained punishment, but he had trouble taking huge single power. Once he got hit with a bomb he was in trouble for the rest of the round. Maybe his chin was good or better than I give credit to, but his recovery certainly wasn't. Bonavena had him down multiple times in a round, and so did Foreman. Once you got him down, he seemed to be down more often within that period of time. Contrary to many similar fighting fighters.

 

I think it was a double left hook that caught Frazier in the 9th round against Ali. He wasn't too badly hurt though, especially considering that a similar punch had had Bonavena on the floor in Ali's previous fight.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlQp8q_Vz_Q[/ame]

7:30

Theatrical version of it:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR3LSD_LSw0[/ame]

5:30

 

Looks like an uppercut hook to me. Actually more of an uppercut. Eitherway, I said he was more vulnerable to the hook/uppercut. Thanks for proving my point GreatA :good

Bonavena hurt Joe with a right hand, I think.

 

I meant the left hook Ali KO'd Bonavena with. :good

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCHHev-5K3Q[/ame]

9:50

 

Now that's a left hook. Either way, what's your point?

 

Ali is on record as saying he found Frazier relatively easy to hit.
I agree with Mendoza's post Frazier relied on his offence to be his defence.Chris Pontius makes some valid points too.Although I think the Dempsey who faced Tunney was a diminished version ,Holywood life had softened the Mauler and his legs did not have that spring anymore.

 

"I think it was a double left hook that caught Frazier in the 9th round against Ali. He wasn't too badly hurt though, especially considering that a similar punch had had Bonavena on the floor in Ali's previous fight."

 

Best post EVA! :good

 

Ali has said to the contrary as well, though.

He described Frazier's defense as something like a magic trick. He said one moment his head is there, but then when you go to hit it it's gone. I think he said his defense was what surprised him most in the first fight.

 

Nice Posts PetethePrince

I do remember the shot that hurt Frazier in the 9th round. But you might be missing a lot of the shots including uppercuts and right hands that Ali threw before the ninth round and after the ninth round that made Frazier miss.

What I said about Frazier's opponents landing frequently goes both ways in response to ChrisPontius. The man did make opponents miss, and it's not as if we're talking about one round here. Let me correct myself, nobody landed a truckload or a boatload of punches against prime Frazier, certainly not like George Foreman's punches that had Frazier down.

Yes, Frazier could be hit early, often more frequently than any other fighter in the early rounds, but at the same time he did make people miss, more often than any other fighter in the early rounds. Frazier threw less punches in the earlier rounds most of the time in order to measure his opponents.