Top 3 fighters since Ray Robinson`s prime ????

your choice of Leonard is actually harder to understand. Hearns was a relative newcomer in the public's eye with three defenses against non desript opposition-a partial titlist. Aaron Pryor's win over Arguello was the more impressive because it was not only the better fight with a more convincing knockout but against a far more established fighter with more exposure (3 time champion)

yes, Pryor's win over Arguello was more significant than Leonard's win over overnight sensation Hearns

 

Your so effing brilliant Rooster In order for me to support Leonard's cause against Pryor, I'll have to run down the guy in my avatar, Arguello. Oh no, what do i do? Well, to be honest, as much as I loved Arguello, there are levels of greatness and Leonard was just a level higher simply because of the speed factor. In addition, Pryor - Arguello was always a questionable fight and it's only grown more questionable with Pryor's supposed admission to Manny Steward that something was amiss. Furthermore, Arguello was 10 pounds past his optimal weight and a couple years past his prime years. Was Arguello a better 130lber than Hearns was at 147???? Possibly. Was Arguello a better 140lber than Hearns was a 147lber??? ABSOLUTLEY NOT. I guess now you'll try to convince me that Akio Kameda, Dujuan Johnson, and Miguell Montilla were better victories than Duran, Hearns, and Benitez. I count the Cervantes win by Pryor as a good win. I don't think Cervantes was shot against Pryor, just slightly past it (kind of reminds me of Hagler vs Leonard. Hagler wasn't as shot as you'd like us to believe). But is the Cervantes win better than a Duran, Hearns, or Benitez win?? Absolutely not. Sorry man, it took me all of five minutes to work myself out of your cruel trap. Check mate.

 

Supposed admission which is? Can you spell it out for me so I can know what you're talking about or am I supposed to guess?

Not only did Aaron knock him out but was well ahead on my card because of his sustained attack throughout along with peerless boxing skills.

Leonard? The only skills he showed in the Hearns fight was taking jabs to the face, behind on all scorecards because of his all too infrequent, cautious agression (you're blowing it son!)

Nobody has to light a fire under Pryor's stool

Aside from all your bull****, pryor's win over Arguello was the bigger win no matter how you spin it. This is 3 time champion with much more exposure than your one time partial champion of 13 months.

I guess now you'll try to convince me that Primera, Shields, and Baez were hall of famers that counted for more than Arguello's wins over Limon, Chacon, Navarette, Mancini, Escalera.



next time try not to give yourself too much credit.

 

We're debating Leonard versus Pryor for the top 3 since Robinson. Hearns opponents versus Arguello's don't have a lot to do with it. In a head to head sense, Hearns is almost universally recognized as a tough nut to crack at 147. Arguello clearly has the better resume at 130 than Hearns has at 147. I don't think much of Hearns exposing the limited Cuevas. But really, what's that have to do with anything?

Head to head, Leonard would've stopped Pryor in a tough, exciting fight IMO. Comparing wins: Benitez, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Kalule vs what? Arguello, Cervantes? (both a little past best). What else? Nicky Furlano? Kameda? Dujuan Johnson? No contest. Throw your boy Hagler in there. I don't have a problem with that at all. Aaron Pryor is a massive reach and just makes you look bad. We don't want that.

 

You should. According to rooster, Cuevas is the #4 best welter of all time. :deal

 

I think Ali has a very strong resume and was a very gifted fighter at his peak, therefore if you combine the two you get a formidable p4p greatness case.

If you take resume and all other considerations out of it and focus purely on ability, I think he was truly great at heavy, but not as great overall as Duran at light, Leonard at welter or Whitaker at light.

These top threes and top fives etc are tricky because they make it look like you don't rate a man who you would place fourth or sixth, because you have excluded them, when really you must rate a guy very highly to have him 4th or 6th in any ranking. I rate Ali's ability extremely highly, but if I had to give a reason why I have him a fraction behind Duran, SRL and Pea I would say it was because there were always slight flaws in Ali's game, even at his dazzling peak. We will never know how dominant he could've been during the Vietcong period, but Frazier and Norton proved he was flawed and beatable after it. Pre-Vietcong, yes he looked sensational against Terrell and Williams etc, but I have always found the Liston wins a little bit unsatisfying, more symbolic than truly meaningful. Had there been Frazier/Foreman type comp around in the mid-late 60s and Ali had mastered them at his peak, I may be inclined to think differently, but as it is I have a nagging feeling that the pre-Vietcong Ali was brilliant but a little flawed (perhaps a little like the way many people feel about Roy Jones?), and the post-Vietcong Ali was great but not better than Duran, SRL and Whitaker.

Please note that these "criticisms" of Ali are only in relation to the abilities of the three aforementioned greats, I am searching for reasons to explain why I "only" rate him as the fourth or so fighter in terms of ability in the last half century! I am an Ali fan and I think he was brilliant.

 

Like I said you give yourself way too much credit.

Im not debating Pryor as a choice for the top 3. Neither one of them belongs there. But Pryor would be above Ray becuz Pryor's win over Arguello was bigger and more impressive than Ray's win over Hearns who wasnt as well known as Arguello.

Arguello was much better known, his accomplishments the stuff of legends. With longer exposure than Tommy's who was really nothing more than a fledgling champion - still seen as a rising star but with question marks surrounding his chin and stamina.

Arguello's defense against Mancini is what put AA into superstar status and in his last contest vs Rooney was a smashing success.

head to head Rryor going toe to toe with Ray never happened. Pryor had the courage to walk up to Ray in public and ask for a fight. Ray did not have the courage to accept so Pryor would have won. It's that simple

You dont get vaulted to the top three by turning down major fights the way Ray did and you dont give credit for winning fights when you turn down opponents either. I would think someone like you would have the brains to figure that out

 

Looks like another 2Sense clinic is looming.

 

Ali
Duran
Pernell Whitaker

 

A good post from you as well mate. It seems we are just at one of those points where neither of us will convince the other, but neither of us really want to anyway. I can definitely appreciate why you would view Ali as better than the three I mentioned, it's a valid p-o-v of course, and this game is all about opinions. I would go so far as to say Ali proved his greatness more emphatically than either Leonard or Whitaker, it's just that I think that on their best nights, SRL and Whitaker were more complete and harder to beat. But that's just my personal perception - which I don't let cloud my judgement entirely if we change the focus to p4p greatness. I have Ali well clear of both in that respect, as his resume and longevity far outstrips those two skillsters. Duran however is on the same level as Ali, in terms of resume, longevity, achievement and ability. That's why he tops both of my lists.

 

I thought Hagler acted embarrased in the ring after both the Duran and Leonard fights.