Completely respectless, to treat one of the most spirited efforts in one of the greatest title fights ever like that, isn't it? Ali fans. :-(
With all due respect, Frazier fans pull the same sort of **** when it comes to his loss to Foreman. From their perspective, Ali being away from the sport for 4 years was totally immaterial in his loss to Frazier, but in the same breath they claim Frazier was washed up at age 29 and while still being the undefeated reigning champion Below are a few examples taken from the rather long list of excuses that they make.. 1. " he was fat and outta shape " 2. " Foreman fought dirty and hit him behind the head." 3. " He was washed up " 4. " he was more concerned about playing in his band than listening to Eddie Futch
Ali was also 29 when he came back. Actually I think with a couple more fights under his belt Ali would be 3-0 over Frazier , he did not have his stamina nor trust his legs for the FOTC.
I don't think that he did either, and frankly I don't believe that he ever regained a lot of what he had lost. There are some here who have argued that Ali purposely adjusted his style to fight in the pocket with Frazier a little bit more, with the assumption that it was a better stategy. I think that's nonsense. Ali was forced to change some of his usual patterns to compensate for LOST ABILITY, and not because he had devised some new and improved approach. Simply put, there is no way that a 1970's Ali after 4 years outside the ring, could replicate both the type of speed and workrate combined that he was able to acheive during the late 60's.. His new style incorporated a lot more flat footedness along with leaning on the ropes and holding behind the head. These were energy conservation tactics and NOT a specially customized blue print for beating smoke.
Even if Frazier was washed up, shot, old, unfocused, whatever, it's difficult to take away anything from Foreman's performance. It was a devastating display of punching power, a massacre of an all-time great heavyweight. I personally think Frazier's loss to Foreman is brought up too often when discussing head-to-head match-ups. It should be brought up, surely, but at times it seems as if his whole legacy was to be blown away by Foreman in two rounds which is supposedly why he would lose to most power punching good heavyweights. After all, few bring up Ali's loss to Frazier as proof that Marciano or Dempsey could handle a prime Ali. The prime Ali of 1966/1967 is seen as near invincible. Some feel the same about the FOTC Frazier, some may feel that about the 1973 Foreman, some may feel that about the Tyson who fought Spinks. Looking at Frazier's two performances in between the Ali and Foreman fights in 1972, it is obvious to me that he was going downhill from the form he showed against Ali and the Foreman fight served as a wake-up call for him. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtlVM-ibIyY[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PkyZ_C7LqM[/ame] Frazier was still a great fighter when Foreman beat him but perhaps not at his very best. Neither was Ali when he fought Frazier but this shouldn't take away from those performances. Excuses like Ali would have won if he had a couple of more months to prepare for the fight and that Ali lost because he was clowning are just petty. George Foreman's words before the first Frazier bout: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1086945/5/index.htm
I dont pretend that Foreman beat an absolute prime Frazier,I think that animal was showcased in FOTC, when he beat a less than prime Ali ,then went to the hospital for a week after wards. Fact is Frazier only met ONE power punching heavyweight. I don't think it is petty to point out that Ali was not the man who had dominated his challengers before his exile,Frazier's aficionados allways tell us he was only half the man he had been , when he met Foreman. Magoo's post is on the money imo. If Frazier took his eye off the ball, partied, and lacked focus that is his fault. If Frazier defended his title against two execrable challengers in Stander and Daniels [both of who were unranked ], that too is his fault. Ali ,whether you agree with his stance on the war or not , lost 4 years of his prime,through no fault of his own imo, He got by lecturing on campuses ,but basically he was denied the right to earn a living. I wouldnt call it petty, high lighting the fact that Ali was not ready to take on the number one heavyweight in the world after such a short preparation. I would say it was accurate, and intrinsic to evaluating the result. Frazier won the fight but a less than prime Ali gave him life and death over 15 rds. Frazier fought two ATG's, his record is won 1 lost 4.And stopped in 3 of the defeats.
I'm pretty sure that Frazier's decline - which I regard as clear - was caused by this hammering. In any imagined trilogy between the two, Frazier can only win one because Muhammad is always going to decimate him. Agree. It's a composite sport after all. Frazier didn't have enough Marciano in him, in the end.
he was very very good but not at all unbeatable, as has been said, foreman liston and tyson among others would consistently beat frazier.
Dempsey versus top 20 heavies: 0-2. And he didn't even have to fight anyone in the top 10, so you could make a case for his being 0-0. Ali's record against ATG heavies is 3-2. Tyson's is 1-3 Holmes is 0-1 Liston is 0-2 etc.
I've always thought that many of the punches Ali unleashed in the Fight of the Century were some of the hardest punches he ever threw and landed. I don't really agree with Frazier only meeting one power punching heavyweight. If you mean a Foreman or Shavers type of a puncher then yes, but which big punchers should he have faced then? Ron Lyle? Was he any bigger a puncher than Bonavena or Quarry? Earnie Shavers? Maybe if Earnie didn't go onto be KO'd in one round by Jerry Quarry. An old Sonny Liston? That would have been a good fight and a good test for young Frazier. How was Ali not ready? He had taken on and beaten two of the best contenders at the time, Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena. I doubt any tomato cans would have gotten him more prepared. In fact he defeated them easier than Frazier. My belief is that you can't truly prepare for Frazier's style, you've got to get in the ring with him and adjust to it. For example Ken Norton sparred with Joe Frazier and during the first sparring session he was KO'd clean! From then on he was able to hang with Frazier when he became accustomed to his style. Frazier could have fought more greats but I'm kind of glad he didn't beat up on old men such as 1970's Floyd Patterson and 1969-1970 Liston. Patterson declined a fight with him, Frazier was steered away from a shunned Liston. Ali was still an extra-ordinarily talented heavyweight when Frazier fought him. He was possibly the greatest heavyweight we ever saw. This is before he even fought Quarry: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNucAPQS5I[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmw_v5RPtwk"] [/ame]
Patterson may not be a top 10 heavyweight, but I certainly consider him an all time great and Liston beat him more than convincingly on two occasions.