Chavez vs Sweet Pea. Who ranks higher all time?

How about this one?

 

Yeah. How about that one?

 

I like. No doubt, you have nice avatars. Better than most peoples round here.

 

You're a close second to me. :good

 

I'm actually a distant first, but we'll agree to disagree.

 

Yeah. I like the Hearns one. Come one MSN.

 

you two have drifted away from the discussion :L its interestiong to see how many people believe Whitaker achieved more, he really didnt!

I can definately see/ agree with having Whitaker ahead if your basing you list largely on a H2H basis, but most people include resume an awful lot.

Hence why many have Archie Moore ahead of Ezzard Charles, Jack Dempsey over Gene Tunney or Oscar De la Hoya over Shane Mosley.

 

If one thinks Whitaker beat DLH, I think there's a good argument for saying that he achieved more.

If you give him the DLH win then he's got wins against Nelson, McGirtX2, DLH and Chavez, all p4p rated guys at the time he fought them. Who were the p4p guys that Chavez beat? Taylor and Randall. Most scoff at the latter win, and a minority even at the first.

 

If you say he won those fights. I personally feel that De la hoya beat him, but the fact is he was well past his prime so you cant count it against him.

I didnt realise that Mcgirt was p4p ranked, what position was he in? Rosario must have been pound for pound at one time, the guys in the hall of fame! And on top of that you have Camacho, who was a very good fighter.

Camacho, Rosario and Taylor are his signature wins, and he has a whole host of wins over other good opposition.

 

The fact he gave DLH a pretty much even fight despite being past his best is something that he deserves merit for, no matter who you thought 'won' the fight.

In Ring Mag he was 5th before the first fight. 4th in KO Mag. He was 7th in KO Mag for the second fight, but no longer in Ring's top 10 for the second fight.

Not sure if he was in Ring's p4p charts but you're right he was in the p4p charts in KO Mag leading up to the Chavez fight. That's fair enough too, becuase I thought he did beat Camacho in 86.

At the time Chavez fought him, Camacho was not that big a win. Greg Haugen had already pretty much gone evens with him for 24 rounds.

Yeah as does Whitaker too. Chavez has a couple more 'good' wins, but Whitaker has the better top shelf wins imo.

 

Chavez's complete dismantling of Rosario was a huge win. Rosario was fresh off destroying Bramble in 2 and losing a very disputed decision to Camacho. I rate that win higher than Whitaker over Nelson and Whitaker over McGirt. I'm not saying Rosario ranks higher historically but he was a better lightweight than Nelson. Chavez had a lot of very good wins. Lockridge, Martinez, Mayweather, Castillo. Is McGirt or an out of his weight class Nelson that much better than these guys? Really?

 

i'm actually just re watching that first mcgirt fight, this is one of Whitakers closer encounters and im currently rescoring it, but it's your point i agree with. Manner of victory is also important, Whitaker had to survive a late round surge by Nelson, a guy who was more of a fifteen round fighter and a career feather/ super feather. Considering that Whitaker went on to win titles up to light middle i feel the win is over rated.

Whitakers resume can be summed up like this.

Elite wins : Nelson (chavez)
Good wins : Mcgirt, Haugen, Ramirez, Vasquez, Mayweather, Nazario.

What i dont like is that so much is made of Chavez's 'gifts' but people dont debate the outcomes of the Rivera or Mcgirt fights.

 

Dont forget Pea beat Uncle Rog aswell nat..and when he was only a wee prospect.

Pea was slated to fight Rosario but Edwin dropped the ball against Nazario...and so Whitaker iced him very impressively instead.

McGirt is on par with or slight better then someone like Lockridge IMO but given Pernell had two convincing wins vs a not so convincing win that Chavez had over Rocky..Id rate that win higher.


You also have to factor in Pernell got absolutely jobbed against Ramirez before Chavez got to him...and frankly I dont think Julio did a better job in his fight with Jose then either of Pernell's fights with JLR..especially the second.

 

Yeah you could argue that the Rosario win was bigger for sure, Rosario was on a hot streak. That said, Rosario was by no means an invincible fighter. He'd already lost (twice imo) to Ramirez and had a hard time with Howard Davis Jr and a young Frankie Randall as a lightweight.

Despite the scoffs this is likely to raise, imo, the Rosario win is not too much better than say Whitaker's victory over Pendelton - Freddie having a shite looking resume nowithstanding. Freddie on his day was a damn good fighter: which explains his KO wins over Bramble, Mayweather, and his draw with Frankie Randall.

 

The win over McGirt is not nearly as contentious as Chavez's over Randall or the Whitaker draw. They aren't even in the same ball park.