I just read that Bert Sugar has Roy Jones 88th on his greatest fighters list

Riko is clearly not saying Jones is better because of what he *could* or *would* have done though. He has listed some of either man's opponents, and claimed that Spinks's opponents were not far better. They were. He needs to have a rethink.

 

Instead of focusing on losses (when Jones was past-prime), why not focus on their wins as a means of deciding who has the better resume at the weight?

Spinks fought and beat better fighters over the course. That is more significant than Jones's losses after his return from heavy.

 

I realize Spinks has a better resume and was a better Light Heavyweight. I agree with you. I was just pointing out that with Jones it is either he would have or could have beat someone or when he lost he was supposedly past his Prime. I don't but it.

Any way you look at it Spinks was a better Light Heavyweight no question about it.

 

I agree, you cant argue with any of his top 8 - some might debate the order tho but thats no big deal.

And yes, 88 is far too low for Roy Jones... Id have him at number 4, just behind Mayweather.
























Just kidding, no heart attacks please

 

Agreed, Ray Leonard is the best fighter of the last 30 yrs.

He makes my top 10.

 

You are making the silly mistake of taking a very strong position on something you don't know much about. If you seriously don't think that Qawi (who had already beaten Matthew Saad twice and Mike Rossman), Yacqui Lopez (who was coming off participation in the Fight of the Year with Matthew Saad), Marvin Johnson (who had beaten Victor Galindez the year before, after Galindez had beaten Rossman for the title), and Eddie Mustafa (who had beaten Matthew Saad and Johnson) were better wins than Jones's then, as I said, that's your problem.

I do rate Jones's lhw resume, his wins over Griffin and Hill were very good, and the manner of his win over Clinton Woods (he basically embarrassed Clinton) does indeed make it a good win, considering the trouble Woods gave Glen Johnson over three fights. I'd throw in Eric Harding as a good win too, as Harding had just beaten Tarver at the time.

I personally don't include Tarver I as a win for Roy, as I don't believe he deserved the decision, I had Tarver sneaking it.

Thus, in my eyes, you have Qawi, Mustafa, Johnson and Lopez as Spinks's best wins, compared to Griffin, Hill, Woods and Harding for Roy.

I repeat: it's not even close.

The Qawi win alone is far, far ahead of either Griffin or Hill IMO.

 

Thoughts on this?:

 

Bert Sugar is definitely knowlegable but he like most old time boxing historians live in the past!! Bert Sugar not having RJJ top 20 (who is probably the most athletic boxer in history) is crazy and delusional!

 

Reggie Johnson?! Nah. He was good when he dropped Toney then beat Collins at 160 in the early 90s, but by the time he fought Roy at 175 in '99 he'd been beaten by Jorge Castro twice and John David Jackson and was in decline. That was not a great win at all for Roy.

Yes, I do agree that Spinks and Jones were both very great fighters though.

 

I think it's a perfectly valid point. Leonard shouldn't be considered a top 10 fighter when you have the old timers fighting over a 100 fights, and beating all-time greats in the process. I still believe what Ray lacked in quantity he made up for in quality, but are four top tier wins enough to catapult the man among the top 10 fighters of all time? I used to think so, but now I'm skeptical. I may be sitting on the fence, but i have no arguments with anyone's placings of Leonard if their in-between 10-20. He shouldn't be outside the top 20 though, in my judgment.

It'd comforting to know that one of the most educated fans on the site, Popkins, agrees with my view of Jones and Spinks' respective careers at Light Heavyweight. Riko said earlier that Mustafa was garbage, but he was WBA champion, seasoned and had beaten the likes of Saad and Johnson. Spinks comes along, a 16 fight novice, and beats him fairly clearly on points. Would Mustafa hold a belt today? Several.

 

The same Bert Sugar who said Marquez would give PBF all he can handle?

Check yourself into a funny farm Bert you dementia sufferer you.

 

28 yr olds with 23 fights are 'novices' and 'green', wtf

 

When you had fought the level of opposition Hopkins had done up until that point, better believe he was a novice. He peaked late, this is common knowledge.

 

Ah, screw it. Jones is a Glass Jawed fraud who handpicked fights his whole career. He was called reluctant Roy for a reason and he DOES NOT deserve to be mentione with top 30 ATG's on accomplishment. It just is not there. Ability? Maybe but we will never know because he took the easy way out most of the time.

 

Here is a more accurate list
Duran Top 5 Fraizer 60 to 70
Ali Top 5 Lewis 60-80
Leonard around 6
Whittaker around 10ish
Chavez around 10ish
Hagler 10-15
Spinks around 15
Sanchez 15-20
Jones 15-20
Hopkins 20 ish
Holyfield 20ish
Holmes 20-25
Delahoya 25-30
Pryor 25-30
Arguello 30ish
Benitez 30-40
Foreman 30-40
Tyson 40
Trinidad 40-45
Barrera 40-50
Calzaghe 60-80