jack johnson vs wladimir klitschko

Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time. Into his late thirties and early forties, the guy would still visit Stillman's gym, take on the best prospect and give him a complete schooling while other's watched in amazement.

Physically, Wlad has the advantages over Johnson. However, Johnson was one of the smartest and craftiest fighters of all time, and there's a reason why he's universally ranked within the top five of most GOAT heavyweight lists, sometimes #1. Neither Klitschko has cracked those rankings IMO, and I'd put my money on Jack Johnson over 15rounds to cleverly out-box Wlad. Definitely the danger is there, but if Chris Byrd's lightweight punches can give the Klitschko's trouble, there's no reason Jack Johnson punch arsenal wouldn't do the same if not more damage.

 

Basically it goes like this. Johnson's legacy was something to behold. But, legacies cannot always be transcended into head to head abilities when comparing fighters across different eras. If legacies were the be all end all, then Sigmund Freud would be more equipped to provide phsycho therapy to a troubled youth today than a modern therapist. Yeah its fantastic that Johnson had both the claim of holding the coloured and lineal world titles while fighting the best around....Now, let's place him an era where he wouldn't be a cruiserweight fighting middleweights, but rather a cruiserweight stepping up to fight HEAVYWEIGHTS. He'd also be fighting guys who began very young in the amatuers, had better training conditions and all the advanatages of the modern era...

This is how head to head fantasy matchups need to be analyzed, and not just by comparing who had the shinier badge on paper..

 

Nice analogy Mr. Magoo.

You are absolutely right in a sense that Jack Johnson would be a mere cruiserweight in size against todays heavies, especially the Klitschko Brothers, Valuev and even Arreola to a degree.

To give Jack Johnson some weight in terms of his legacy, I'd bet that his boxing skillset is twice, perhaps even thrice the skillset of any of the modern heavyweights today. Feinting, parrying, rolling and hooking, side uppercuts and jabbing off the hook are boxing techniques that are rarely used to today that would certainly his cause against the Klitschkos. Maybe those techniques are irrelevant today as some have argued in different threads.

Muscle for muscle, I don't honestly think there's anyone that can compare to the Klitschkos and Valuev right now, and this is one of the areas from a physiological standpoint that Jack Johnson would lose in head to head matchups. The skills are there to beat both Wlad and Vitaly, but sizewise is a different story altogether.

 

To be fair though Johnson was a lean 208 lbs for the Jeffries fight. That is almost exactly what Evander Holyfield weighed when he fought Riddick Bowe the first time and without the benefits of any modern suplements.

 

The cruiser weights who move up often give up a lot of size, and need to be extra strong in the durability department to cope with the best punchers.

I have also noted that even a top defensive cruiser weight defense tends to disappear when he's matched vs a much bigger opponent with skills and speed.

 

Juan Carlos Gomez?

 

The problem that I have with Jack Johnson's style is that it was a strategy which rewarded him for being the bigger and stronger man. Johnson's technique utilized a lot of holding, wrestling and the wearing down of his opponents. That's fine if you're a 6'1" 205 lb man figting 5'9", 168 lb guys, or even larger men who are washed up. It does not bode well however, when facing prime athletes who are 4-6 inches taller, outweigh you by 30 or more lbs, are stronger, and are more professionally trained. It's also unlikely that Johnson would even have an opportunity to apply such tactics given that Wladimir Klitschko is a fighter who uses his reach and outside boxing tactics rather well, and has a punch that's probably greater than any power Johnson ever felt...

I believe this fight to be a mismatch.

 

Johnson would win this one on his ear.

Far too smart, wins on the outside - or in..

Id give Wlad no chance at all...

 

But the reality is that Johnson fought a lot of bigger oponents who were at the top of their game.

Just check the record.

Johnson had the misfortune that most of his filmed fights were against smaller oponents.

The reality is that he probably fought more world level fighters over 200 lbs than any champion before the 70s with the possible exception of Louis.

 

Having thought about this, (other than the punchers chance), i dont see how Wlad can win this one. He has stamina problems (i am not sure why because he looks in good condition unlike most modern fighters probably it is his size mainly causing the difficulties). The way he gets around this is to jab and hit from a distance and clinch in close. The problem he has with johnson is that johnson is trained for the clinch. Even though Wlad is bigger and who knows maybe even stronger, he will badly wear out from Johnsons work in the clinches. Johnson will grab his biceps, tuck his head in close and prevent Wlad from striking effectively. Plus, he will land the uppercut while they are wrestling in the clinches and this will shake up Wlad and eventually wear him down. Even if Wlad can use his power to overcome Johnson in the clinches, it will tire him out badly and i can see him struggling for air and feeling everything that Johnson lands on him. Something not too dissimilar to what he looked like at the end of the Brewster fight.

 

Who were his best opponents though? There is no denying that Johnson's legacy was bolstered on the shoulders of beating much smaller men who were more highly regarded than the larger fighters of the time... What percentage of his fights came against larger heavyweights, and were any of them even remotely on the level of a Klitschko?

 

Wlad showed some stamina problems in the Brewster fight as well as on a few other select occasions, but he has shown that he is more than capable of going at least 12 rounds and being effective for a full evening. We have to take this whole " well guys at the turn of the century were battling it out for 45 rounds " thing with a grain of salt.. Johnson spent a great deal of time in the ring clinching, holding and wrestling much smaller opponents, and throwing few punches. Its not like Johnson fought men like Hart, Langford, Godfrey, and Burns with the same type of high activity volume that Ali fought Frazier with.. I don't think its very realistic to think that Johnson is just going to "cling" to the much larger and probably stronger Klitschko for an unlimited amount of rounds, until he wears out and drops. And we can forget about Johnson pulling a Corrie Sanders, as he clearly did not have the power, size, handspeed nor style to acheive an early KO.

Wlad has a sizeable reach, good ring generalship, and outside fighting ability to keep jack at bay. He also has a punch that may very conceivably be harder than anything Jack's ever been hit with, and even if it isn't, he at least has the ability to deliver it a lot more often than anyone else Johnson's faced. I don't see Wlad having to work very hard to keep Johnson to a minimal threat either. Jack had a 39% KO ratio against mainly sub-200 lb men who were under six feet and quite often took him many rounds.. When Johnson finally finished them, it was mainly due to exhaustion from having to wrestle with a bigger man, as opposed to being hit with real power. Jack would not have this luxury against Klitschko. There is an old adage that the smaller guy usually has to work harder. Now place Johnson in the shoes of someone like Tommy Burns and see how he handles it.

 

You say that Jack wont spend much time clinching and wrestling Wlad, but with due respect, why wouldnt he? That was his style. He never changed for anyone else, why now. Plus, Wlad himself likes to clinch, so i dont see how wrestling does not play its part here, if we assume a liberal ref, which is only fair. My point is that Vlad will tyre from this wrestling. He just isnt trained for it. Even if he is able to assert a strength advantage, he still has to land on Jack. that is near impossible when Jack ties up arms and gets his head tucked in close. Wlad prefers to land long hooks jabs and crosses, but he will not be use to having to work in close to unload his short punches and he also wont be use to getting hit while he is clinching. No matter how much of an advantage he has, Johnson will stick to his game plan (he certainly wont try to fight Wlad at long range for obvious reasons). This means that Wlad must get tired. Of course Johnson will tire also, so it isnt one sided, but no more than he is use to. I agree that Wlad may hit as hard or harder than johnson was ever hit and to be honest i can see a knock down or two (and there is still the punchers chance) but i dont think that there is any doubt that Wlad has stamina concerns and Johnson will capitalise on this.

For some reason people think that it is crazy to clinch and wrestle a bigger and more powerful opponent. NOthing could be further from the truth. Clinching wears them down, prevents them from landing big and is generally the best method for an outgunned fighter to use. For living proof, look at the success of Ruiz, and Johnson is on another level to Ruiz. In all honesty, the clinching style probably gives johnson a better chance than strikers such as Dempsey or (dare is say it) Joe louis, purely from a stylistic point of view anyway.

 

No, this was what I said below:

Meaning, I don't think this strategy will work. I have no doubt about Johnson trying to initiate it though. It was the only thing he knew. He just never knew a fighter like Wlad.

There is a difference between using a clinche to stop an attack on the way in, ( which Wlad does ), and using holding techniques on a constant basis to try and over power and wear down your adversary ( which Johnson does. ) And no, I don't think that Johnson's tactics will work for reasons which I've already covered.

I really don't think Johnson is going to be able to tie up Wlad the way that he did men like Burns, Langford and some of the others. The techniques are there, but the physical tools are not.. I also disagree that his defense will be totally impervious to Wlad's outside attacks. His Jab is almost as good, or let's at least say " comparable" to Larry Holmes', and he has plenty of force behind it. He's also improved his footwork tremendously, and even if he lands on Johnson's guard, you can rest assured that it won't feel like getting hit by a middleweight.

Fair enough.

In all fairness, John Ruiz was not overly accustomed to fighting middleweight or light heavyweight sized fighters the way that Johnson was, and incidentally, when he did, one of those " outside strikers" utilized his boxing game to make him look rather silly.