Add one name to make a compined P4P 100

Yey and Lopez dominated Ohashi winning every round on 2 0f the 3 cards and knocking him out in 5 in Ohashi's home country.

 

I have Lopez #3 All time mexican fighter, and I have him in the mid to late 20s atg fighters. No lower than 30.

 

Who did he beat to justify such a high position?

 

I've spoken to (via internet) and heard the opinions of a good many historians and old-timers myself, you're not on your own there. Knowledge and perception is what it is, any way it is gained.

I believe you were the first one to call me out by insinuating that I hadn't seen footage of such fighters as Johnson and Lopez, who the majority of this forum are fully aware of, in both their abilities and accomplishments as fighters. What you said rubbed me the wrong way, which is why I retaliated the way I did. I didn't say it to talk myself up, but to call you out on your statements regarding myself and the fighters you mentioned, which I found to be quite ignorant and uneducated myself.

Give me a few thoughts on the following fighters?

Chan-Hee Park
Luis Ibarra
Luis Estaba
Yoko Gushiken
Myung-Woo Yuh
Fidel LaBarba
Yoshio Shirai
Walter McGowan
Hiroyuki Ebihara
Venice Borkhorsor
Shoji Oguma
Sot Chitalada

It should also be worth mentioning that noone he fought outside or Rosendo Alvarez was even close to an elite fighter. Lopez was no doubt a great technician, but it can't be denied that he was a lot more unproven against quality opposition than pretty much any other so called great. He dominated a wasteland division, while he always had Carbajal and Gonzalez to move up and face to really prove himself. He never did that.

If there can be one knock against Chang it would've been his short prime, but the same can be said of guys like Fighting Harada. He wasn't old by conventional standards, but by the standards of the lower weight greats and fighters of that style, it was quite obvious that he was already past his prime well before then. That much was quite noticable in his rematch with Ohashi.

Either way, none of what you just posted makes much of a difference regarding my opinions of him, considering:

The first 3 fights you mentioned were at the tail-end of his career, the last two being at Flyweight in bouts where he was clearly out-sized. Regardless, most who've seen the Kittikasem bout know he was clearly up before being recklessly caught by a huge punch right at the endd while going for the finish. Something that would've been much less likely to happen in his earlier days when his movements and defensive relexes were a lot sharper. The Chitalada bout was also a very close affairr which could've been argued in Chang's favor. I certainly don't see Lopez beating that version of Chitalada either, particularly a past prime version of Lopez fighting above his best weight. Not to mention the Gonzalez fight was a lot closer than the cards suggested as well, and I've little doubts that a prime Chang would've worked him over hard.

As for Zapata, I'll take you haven't actually seen the fight. Anyone who has is pretty much in full agreement that while a very competitive fight, the decision clearly belonged to Chang. A 19 year-old Chang mind you. An on-form Zapata is another fighter I'm not sure I see Lopez beating to be quite honest, and he was definitely on form in that first bout, unlike the rematch where he was untrained and severely weight-drained, having just gotten out of jail.

As I always say, it's not where you fight that matters, but rather who you fight. Chang's list of opponents is of a far higher quality than Lopez's.

I certainly don't think of Lopez was fluid in his movements, though he was indeed an excellent combination puncher and textbook boxer-puncher. He was very mobile on his feet and effective at what he did, but he didn't have the versatility to box, slug, slip, roll, and go all out like Chang did. He also never showed much of an inside game, which was one of Chang's strong suits.

I think against a higher quality of opponent and/or a more varied array of stylists to face, Lopez's rigid, up-right style may've hurt him, whereas Chang's free-wheeling buzz-saw approach pretty much transcended styles matchups.

 

Besides his phenomenal talent I didnt see one flaw in him as a fighter. He beat 10 champions Guardia,Ohashi,kyun yun lee,Melchor,potelo also beat highly regarded power puncher Nene Sanche,Will Grigsby,Rosendo Alvarez the only blotch being a tech draw and he won the rematch against Alvarez,beat vorapin who had 20 title defenses,and blew out the very good Sorjaturong who knocked out atg Chiquita also kod highly regarded Ala villamor. He also had 23 title defenses,he went 24-0-1-19kos in title fights.Which shows that just about 1/2 of his fights were in title defenses. If that isnt impressive enough for you well then I just dont think you recognize that the little guys as quality fighters. It is also in the manner he dominated all of these champs with only Rosendo giving him tough fights who in my opinion should be a future HOF. Julio Cesar Chavez who as we all know is not the humblest of fighters has even stated that he is glad him and Finito were not in the same weight class. Granted he didnt fight Carbajal or Chiquita but that had more with them not wanting no part of Lopez not the other way around. Bottom line on top of the dominance he showed as a champion. I just dont see too many guys ever beating him in a Hth matchup. I would put him much higher if he had bigger names on his resume, because in a HTH matchup Id put him about 20 notches higher. HIs 51-0-1-38ko record has to be given more accolades than it has. Especially with 1/2 of his fights at the championship level.

 

Well I do know about every fighter you just mentioned and ill give you my take on a few of them of the top of my head.
Myung woo Yuh-actually he won the title from Joey Olivo who trained at the same gym (Hollenback In East LA) as i did as a kid,I remember the uproar when he came back home about how controversial that fight was,when he returned home I remember seeing a tape of that fight and thinking that Olivo should have got it by 3 points, it was a split decision and in Korea so that says alot.Yuh was a swarming but skillful fighter with average power at best.
Shoji Oguma-I remember him as a very good flyweight of the late 70s early 80s who was rivals with Beutulio GOnzalez who I believe knocked him out in one of their fights
Chan Hee Park- I know he beat Canto and Drew with him at the tail end of his career,he also split a couple fights with Oguma i believe.
Fidel Labarba-One of the first great fighters to come out of LA and was fly champ and even moved up to feather giving Kid CHocalate all he could handle.
Sot Chitalda- he was a long reigning champ out of thailand good boxer/puncher had a lot of title defenses.

There was also a thread not long ago posted by Benny Blanco something about whats up with the Asian Invasion. I gave a lengthy post on a lot of the other guys that you mentioned above I just dont feel like typing so much. Look it up I stated that there is no Asian Invasion that theres been alot of good asian fighters in the lighter divisions dating back to the old days. Feel free to ask me some more questions as long as i dont have to type like 200 paragraphs which i would have to do to comment on every fighter you mentioned.

 

Im gonna comment on your statements on their opponents. You talked about a past his prime Lopez not being able to handle some guys like Chitalda, well Lopez did show signs of slipping but he was still great enough to blow out everyone even at the tail end easily knocking out Potelo and convincingly defeating Grigsby who gave Carbajal all he wanted when they were both up and coming. Also Vorapin was a quality fighter that Lopez kod who you didnt mention. 20 title defenses does not make a quality fighter to you? Also you said Changs prime was short but he was around for a long time and had like 17 title defenses from what i remember. Also Lopez would have kod the tall and SPeedy Zapata whos chin was not that good,He did stop my buddy Olivo though.

 

Vorapin was poor and well past his best when Lopez fought him.NOt taht i think he would have troubled him at any point, mind you.

I don't think the the beat ten splinter champs" way of looking at things works in the wasteland straw\light fly scene.Sorjaturong is a case in point.Usually mentioned as one of Ricardo's best opponents and rightly so, as his determination and big right hand made him a reasonably dangerous contender(as the overrated gonzalez found out), but he was also an unskilled plodder with no other notable tools.The fact a guy could have a good run showed how little being a champ means there in many cases..and he's one of the better splinter champs from the '90s scene!.Stick him in a good competitive division and he's barely even world class imo.

The sixties through eighties were arguably the best period for the sub-feather classes.The nineties for the most, had no depth at or below Flyweight.

 

You made some good points. There were alot of soso champs around that division but there were also some outstanding ones Lopez,Johnson,Carbajal,Chiquita,Yuh,Alvarez,Romero(at fly),Arbachakov,Chang and a guy i used to like to watch but didnt hold the title long was Alberto Jimenez also Melchor Cob Castro,Sot Chitalda. THe best of all those though was Lopez and Johnson in my opinion would have been dominant in any weight they fought at . I am also impressed with Nonito and Darchinyan was good. Thats just at FLy I think there have been numerous excellent Jbs and Bantams. almost forgot about Calderon.

 

I wasn't just referring to a past prime Lopez, but rather any version. I think Sot would've had his number. Lopez doesn't have a style that would've exploited Sot's weaknesses.

He could've dominated the Straw-weight division until he was 50 for all we know. That doesn't change the fact that he wasn't facing quality opposition. None of those guys were elite fighters or close to it. They were pretty solid guys by my estimation, but nothing that would increase Lopez's standing as a fighter in an all time sense, just run of the mill title defenses.

Point to me where I said Lopez wasn't quality. I've clearly stated he was a fantastic technical box-puncher. I think he'd have held his own with pretty much anyone to have come around at the Jr. divisions, I just don't think he'd have looked quite as impeccable against a higher caliber of opponent and a wider array of styles.

His prime lasted for about 3 or 4 years, starting around the first Zapata fight I'd say, though he was still very young then (which is another factor which lead to his early decline in terms of age). He was still a quality fighter, very much so, but nowhere near his prime by the end of his reign and to the point he stepped up against Gonzalez and later to Flyweight against the aforementioned fighters.

On off-form Zapata I'd agree, as he could be very inconsistent at times due to his lack of dedication, but on form he was about as gifted a defensive pure boxer as I've ever seen at any weight class. I'd say a fight between the two would go to a decision, with either Lopez's offensive out-put just swinging it in his favor or Zapata's lateral movement and defensive mastery nullifying his offensive talents.

 

Lopez had 23 title defenses. Actually the fighter I was talking about that had 20 title defenses was Ratanapol sor Vorapin,because everyone has been jumping on Lopez quality of opponents. It seems like Lopez gets more slack than credit for all his defenses,seems Like Larry Holmes and Joe Louis get alot of praise for all their defenses even though 1/2 of their opponents werent that good. Dont get me wrong Im a big Holmes guy and Louis is my #2 heavy. But Lopez resume seems to not get the recognition that he deserves. As far as Chitalda goes hes not the beast you make him out to be,he was a good solid champion but he was beatable especially against someone like Lopez. The only fly champ around his time that probably would have been to much for him was Too Sharp Johnson who was a Beast at flyweight and very fast.In that case Lopez skills might not have been able to overcome Johnson who was bigger and stronger and had the skills to match.

 

Pea, since we're on the subject of lighter weight fighters, what are your thoughts on Samart Payakaroon? I hold him in high regard as an athlete. Payakaroon was a thai boxing champion along with being a world champion boxer.

I've never really analyzed him solely as a boxer. Are you familiar with Payakaroon? I don't think he's going to be making anyone's top 100, just curious.

 

My mistake. Either way, that more or less just proves mine and Mantequilla's point about the lack of quality in the division that a fighter like Vorapin could rake off 20 title defenses. I don't necessarily think he was a poor fighter, just not a stand-out one in any way. A pretty basic stylist who was trumped every time he stepped it up.

Louis's bum of the month club was probably more stacked than Lopez's top tier of opponents, the same goes with Holmes.

He gets his recognition based on his skill-set, dominance, and consistency over a long period. He dominated the division as thoroughly as he could've. However, when you're feasting on scrubs or second rate champions the majority of your reign (which is all there was) it doesn't go far towards proving your merits as an all time great. If he really wanted to prove himself, he should've moved up earlier. As it was, he faced Alvarez and looked a lot less extraordinary than he'd been made to look prior, though he was past his best by that time.

I'm not so certain. Chitalada's unorthodox but very effective out-boxing style could've flustered Lopez's much more up-right, textbook approach. It's an arguable point to be sure, but something tells me that Chitalada's style may've been ideal for off-setting Lopez's.

 

He was a great talent for a few years prior to facing Fenech (in a bout where he was nowhere near his best shape for). He had a brilliant defensive radar, honed from his years as a Muay Thai champion. He showed a lot more lateral movement during his boxing years than he did as a Muay Thai fighter (out of necessity) as well. He also had an excellent straight left hand, which we saw on display when he flattened Pintor (albeit a shopworn version).

As talented a boxer as he was, his skills in this great sport absolutely pale in comparison to what he was as a Muay Thai fighter, where he's recognized as one of the very greatest to ever do it.

 

Thanks for the response. I've known his name for quite some time, as I'm also interested in martial arts. I've read about him, but the only footage I've seen is what is on youtube. I've never researched the careers of those he boxed against, so did not know the quality of his opponents. I'm familiar with Pintor and Fenech, but that is pretty much it as far as his resume is concerned.