Please Participate--All Time Lightweight Survey (POLL CLOSED!!)

So there was a lack of quality in the Coloured division? I dont think the argument holds water. It was just different times, matchmaking attitudes, communication methods and transport methods. It would be like holding it against todays fighters because they hardly ever seem to fight each other (much less top contenders).

Because they were the money fights? Ali fought Norton, Frazier, Quarry, Chuvalo, Liston. 5 fighters a total of 12 times. Difference being that he lost to some of them. Why?

You can hardly say that Ali should suffer because of this.

Ok then (not sure where this will go).

Nov 3 1887 is when the Carney fight took place. Apparently on 22 Jan, it was reported that Carney had a small fortune tucked away and friends did not expect him to fight again! Sounds hard to rematch so far. Carney doesnt seem to have fought for a year in 1890 and he may have even relocated to England because his next fight was in 1891 for the English lightweight title. Incidentally, it was a lossto Dick Burge. In 1892, Austin Gibbons challenged Carney to a return fight. Nothing seemed to eventuate, thoush we do know that McAuliffe fought and beat Gibbons.

I think he gets a pass on the Carney situation.

Now i will try Griffo.

Griffo-mcauliffe was on 27 August 1894. In September 1894, Griffo lost his next fight to Alf Duncan. He then finished the Year with a string of exhibition and short No Decision fights. McAuliffe, meanwhile, broke his arm and retired from the sport! Again, you can hardly blame him for failing rematch griffo. Like many champions, Mcauliffe came out of retirement and started to fight again. He fought some exhibitions or short NO decision fights until his first reported fight which was a 2 round KO of Gus Brown on April 6 1896. The same month that Griffo has lost a decision after coming off a 1st round ko loss to Hugh Behan. Interestingly, in 1897 Griffo lost a fight to Philadelphia Tommy Ryan, when he quit after 3 rounds. In September McAuliffe fought Tommy Ryan to a 10 round draw, but the referee had leaned toward giving Jack the decision but it was prearranged to be a draw. I think that McAuliffe gets a pass also on failing to give Griffo a rematch also.

Do you honestly think that a one or two fight novice gets a world title shot? One thing that is agreed is that they fought more regularly in the old days. Once a week, a fortnight or at worse once a month. Are you suggesting that they stood around with most fighters in the area fighting this regularly and said okay, you havent had a fight, but i think you are the best fighter to take this challenge. That is ridiculous.

I havent got time (or ability to be honest) to research but i will see if a quick google might turn up anything at all. (again not sure where this will head, but i doubt that this is a complete novice). So, the first result i get is Dacey fighting on the undercard of a Jim Corbett - Charlie Mitchell benefit fight against Mike Leary. Quite interesting actually. Leary Lost a fight to MCauliffe early in McAuliffe's carreer. For anyone interested here is the card which has some pretty good fighters on it, but some wrestling also.

New York City: February 24, 1894
(Madison Square Garden benefit card) … (boxing) Jim Corbett sparred Charley Mitchell (4 rds.) … (boxing) George Dixon sparred Eddie Loeber (3 rds.) ... (boxing) Mike Leary sparred Bill Dacey (3 rds.) … (broadsword contest) Duncan C. Ross beat F.S. Castellano (5-0 points-10 minutes) ... (boxing) Charles Kelly sparred John Carroll (3 rds.) ... (boxing) Walter Campbell sparred Walter DeBaurn (3 rds.) … (boxing) Tommy Ryan sparred Billy Vernon (3 rds.) … (boxing) Mr. Kangaroo (animal) sparred Thomas Tully (3 rds.) … (boxing) Jack Levy sparred Casper Leon (3 rds.) ... (boxing) Bill Slavin sparred brother Jack Slavin (3 rds.) … (boxing) Dolly Lyon sparred Tom (Spider) Kelly ... (boxing) Frank Craig sparred Jim Foley (3 rds.) … (catch as catch can style) Hugh Leonard drew with A.B. McFadden (10 minutes) ... (graeco-roman style) William Muldoon (retired champion) drew with Ernest Roeber (present champion) (15 minutes ... Professor Attila put on a strength and balancing art

As you can see there were some big names on this card, quite strange that Dacey would be included if he were a nobody. I would guess that he must have been a pretty decent fighter to compete here. Either that or he was the luckiest novice alive to make the card of such a prestige event and get a title shot as a novice.

Next up is a book about the Non Pareil Jack Dempsey. It talks about his war with Billy Dacey. Dempsey did win, but again I would say that Dacey is starting to look like a handy fighter, if he is considered good enough by two all time greats to fight. Certainly not a total nobody.

The final thing i found was an 1893 fight where Dacey fought as the main fight on Joe Walcott card.http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B06E4D61F3FEF33A25755C0A9609C94629ED7CF
He apparently showed up fat and out of shape and lost a points decision.

So, off a google quickie it is clear that if Dacey was a novice when he fought MCauliffe, he certainly went on to be a well thought of fighter. Who was at least world class contender level. So MCAuliffe must have had a hell of an eye for talent. Realistically, i think it safe to say that he was one of the best contenders available.

Well he was the champion, and he didnt lose. They were not good enough to take his title and they were not good enough to beat contenders and force a rematch. I would say that he did in fact dominate his era. No one stayed champion (and unbeaten) for as long as he did. You cant get away from that.

Agreed.

I just dont like penalising legacies for not losing fights.

Incidentally dont forget that under the rules of the time, Ali's record could have easily included 2 draws and a loss with Frazier, 2 draws and a loss to Norton, a draw with Chuvalo and a KO loss to Kent green. That would have made his legacy look quite ordinary, particularly when guys like quarry start to be considered nobody englishman, Shavers and lyle as novices with 1 and 0 records, etc.

 

It is hard to rank fighters at these lighter levels. Incidentally, a young bob fitzsimmons fought for and won the New Zealand lightweight championship in a tourament. I am not saying that he deserves to rank as a light weight, but inexperience of not he would be one hell of a sleeper in any lightweight head to head tournament. The absolute ultimate punchers chance, i would have thought.

 

mclarnin i forgot lost to mandell atsch but still deserves consideration as a lightweight i think

 

I have allready explained why the black fighters met so often so won't repeat myself.
Reading further about McAuliffe I find that claims that he held the title for 13 years are wrong ,his title reign cannot confidently be given as more than 7 years, from when he beat Harry Gilmore, in 1887 to when he beat Billy Myer, in 1893.
That is accepting him as champion something ,he never actually won in the ring, after his fight with Gillmore who was probably the standout other lightweight.
There is a very good site ," boxing biographies .com", which gives reams of detail about McAuliffe, around 4 pages,and is very complimentary towards him.
Wikipedia also states a title reign of 7 years-1886-1893.
The Biography site points out that in at least 3 instances draws that were questionable saved McAuliffe from defeat.

 

The lightweight divison is loaded with talent.

1. Leonard
2. Armstrong
3. Gans
4. Duran
5. Whitaker
6. Mosley
7. Williams
8. Cazonneri
9. Pryor
10. Ross

 

It certainly is ,But I think you have a cuckoo in its nest in Pryor, who did he beat at the weight to get him in an all time top ten ?

 

He KO'd Arguello twice. Pryor was one of the hardest punching lightweight / jr. welter's I've ever seen. With his power and determination, his opponents simply could not hold him off.

Pryor was something of a two fisted Joe Frazier type. He could eat up boxers and spit them out... and the light weight division is mostly full of boxers. Only losing once in his career, I feel Pryor is under rated. He's the type of fighter you only have to see once or twice to know he's trouble for anyone.

 

The fights with Arguello were at JNR WELTER,with Arguello at the tail end of a great career ,coming up in weight for the fourth time ,that is four divisions from where he originally started.
I know about Pryor 's capabilities ,and no one questions his quality,but I do question his right to be ranked as an all time top ten LIGHTWEIGHT, because he simply did not beat anyone of stature whilst performing at that weight.

 

You are right about that being an excellent site. There are 7 pages. The Jim Corbett article about the fight with Billy Myer - the Streator Cyclone, where the majority of the crowd bet their savings on Myer and game to the fight with their shotguns and knives, with fans attacking the legs every time he got near the ropes is unbelievable. How many other all time greats would have maintained their zero in those circumstances? Also interesting that in the Carney fight, McAuliffe was badly out of shape and the prize had apparently been reduced by $500 because of McAuliffes sickness. Once again, McAuliffe was great in retaining the zero. It also sounds that under modern rules McAuliffe would ahve definitely won by KOs as he seems to have got hit by more low blows than an Andrew Golota opponent.

I have to read some different bios on that site. Thanks for the link!

 

Guess I'm the only one who managed to squeeze Willie Ritchie into my list...

:conf

 

Fine Champion ,though I would rate Welsh above him.

 

1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Tony Canzoneri
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
9. Jackie Blackburn
10. Dave Holly

 

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Ike Williams
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Tony Canzoneri
7. Joe Gans
8. Henry Armstrong
9. Sugar Shane Mosley
10. Barney Ross

 

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Ike Williams
8. Lou Ambers
9. Tony Canzoneri
10. Jose Luis Castillo

 

I always regarded you as one of the more reasonable posters, which why it astounds me to see no Ike Williams on your list.

Not to say mine is anywhere near perfect, obviously. But it doesn't seem possible that some people remain adament about his #3 placing whereas other don't include him in a top ten. It's like a Lennox Lewis situation.