Liston's resume and ranking

Liston's myth pre-Ali based on his walk-in-the-park-wins against a glass-chinned Patterson, that's all.

 

On the subject, I've read a newspaper report that states THE RING magazine dropped Valdes from #2 in the heavyweights ratings to #6, following his loss to Charley Powell. At they entered Powell at #9 ! Which seems unfair to me, and is just one of many examples of why I dont put much stock in THE RING ratings.

Two fights later Valdes was outpointed by Alonzo Johnson, just 7 weeks before his fight with Liston. Valdes was 34 years old and his current form was not that of a top contender, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Resumes > speculation.

 

I think Cleveland Williams had good hand speed and was an accurate puncher as well as a hard one. His biggest limitation was his suspect durability, I reckon.

I agree, he was a fringe contender going in to the Liston fights, lacked top level experience, and his efforts in both fights didn't warrant him being anything more than a fringe contender on exiting the ring either. He could dish it out pretty good, but couldn't take it (though many wouldn't be able to take it from Liston).
Overall though, looking at his career, and strengths and weaknesses, Williams was a good fighter. And established himself with the draw against Machen and the two fights with Terrell as a serious contender in '62 -'64.

 

Yep, and personally I rate Floyd pretty high. Solid in the Top20 without a doubt. The youngest hw champ and the first two time hw champ are great achievements. Add his more than solid resume, especially after he lost the title, his longevity, that he fought and was competative while beeing long past his best, his ability to change his style when he had to ... great and due to his KO losses vastly underated fighter :good

 

:good
Yeah, I think Floyd Patterson was pretty good.
And Liston dismantled him ridiculously easily. I think Liston's arguably deserving of a very high ranking on account of that and his few other significant wins.

I do think people try to stretch Liston's resume/credentials a bit too much though, unnecessarily. And I dont buy into the "Ali was the Greatest" alibi (for Liston's crappy efforts in those two fights) either.

 

I disagree here. The Holmes Tyson fought wasn´t the same Holmes who later would fight again. He was just in there as a slaughter pig. Just for the money. He wasn´t in the ring for a few years, came of two losses and was not training for years. He also hadn´t that much train for years. I don´t think the Holmes win is better than Liston´s Patterson wins.

 

Tyson was KOed as often as Patterson. Is he glass jawed too? Patterson had no glass jaw. This is so exagerated. He got knocked down often but most of these knockdowns were due to him beeing offbalance due to his style. Nearly every tiem he got up and beat his opponent. That´s not beeing glassjawed. :bart

 

if you don't speculate how do you come to an opinion.
as for resumes,which at their peak genuine heavyweight contenders did dempsey and marciano beat

 

You could make the case that Williams was unlucky not to get the decisions against Machen and Terrell the second time. I might be wrong but I believe the newspapers scored those fights for Williams.

From BoxRec:

"Ernie Terrell, 198 1/2, fighting with a cut over his right eye, upset No. 4 ranked heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams, 210, Saturday night in a 10 round nationally televised bout at the Arena. Terrell won by a split decision. Terrell started off fast, winning the first two rounds. His best punch was his left jab which kept Williams off balance. Williams rallied strong in the 3rd round and stunned Terrell with a left hook which referee Pete Tomasco ruled a slip. After an even 4th round, Williams scored heavily in the 5th and opened the cut over Terrell's right eye. In the 6th, Terrell peppered Williams' right eye, and although it was not cut, it was so swollen he could hardly see out of it. Terrell rallied in the 9th which apparently won him the fight. He scored with a series of close combination punches. Williams won the 10th round over a tiring Terrell, who was physically exhausted at the end." - Associated Press

• Unofficial AP scorecard - 46-45 Williams

The judges' scorecards:

Jack Styles 44-46 Terrell
Pete Pantaleo 46-44 Williams
Pete Tomasco 44-46 Terrell

A third bout between Ernie Terrell and Cleveland Williams was scheduled for the WBA version of the heavyweight title when Williams was shot. Machen instead was given the chance.

Liston to me is a definite top 10 or top 15 fighter. For those who criticize his opposition, who should he have fought? An ancient Ezzard Charles? A returning Rocky Marciano? Ingemar Johansson who retired instead of fighting Liston?

 

I agree with you. I rate Liston in the group who ranks between 8 and 11 at hw, alongside Frazier, Foreman and Holyfield, just a tad ahead of Tyson, Dempsey, Wills and Langford.

 

By going with the facts we know. And that´s largely resume, achievements, longevity, dominance. After you have a ranking, personally I prefer a tier-system, by these standards than you can factor in ability and intangibles. At least that´s how I do it.

 

somebody in one of the above posts mentioned the "fear factor" which you can't see in a fighters resume.

 

I think a lot of people are "criticizing his opposition" only really to counter the way the quality and quantity of his opposition is built up by some who feel they need to build it up to justify a high ranking.
I think it's unnecessary to do so.

Well, he should have fought Cassius Clay, for starters.

 

He fought him enough to make Mr. Clay want to quit after a couple of rounds. :good

I agree his opposition shouldn't be built up but it has also been taken apart equally as bad from what I've seen. Liston fought the best contenders around who could very well have been champions/title holders if not for Liston beating them and Patterson not fighting them. There weren't 3 or 4 title belts around either, just one. I've been more impressed watching films of Machen, Folley and Williams than of the many contenders other heavyweight champions fought.