Johansson also made it pretty clear that he wanted no part of Liston in the US. Why would Sonny want to go to Sweden? There was money at home.
Why would Johannson go to the states when there is money in Sweden? Perhaps that´s where he finds the best opponents? Well, the best possible opponent, aside from Floyd, for Liston was in Sweden, so why not go there and beat him on his home turf when the money is right?
I think Liston's deliberately trying to blind Ali is about as likely as Walcott's deliberately trying to blind Marciano. Not very. I think it was an accident, personally.
It amounts to speculation. If you want to quote SI I think their report thought it was Angelo Dundee's sponge or Liston's ointment for his cuts that seemed to cause the distress. The "how many fights in history" reasoning can be used anyway you want. How many fights in history did a world heavyweight champion with "mob connections" quit with such a poor excuse and after such a mild "beating" and level on points against a 7-1 undedog ? There you are, PROOF of a FIX. Speculation, and rumour, that's all you provide. "Mob connections" is just another sensationalist phrase that doesn't convince me at all. It's not as if you need to be connected to serious criminals to cheat in that way, or that being free from mob connections automatically makes the cornermen more reliable. Bobby Czyz was "blinded" by Holyfield, that was his excuse for quitting. Chris Byrd complained after one of his fights (Golota?) that he'd had stinging eyes from something on his opponent. Rocky Marciano was blinking distressed against Walcott with something in his eyes, and blamed Walcott's corner for deliberately trying to blind him. Maybe. But maybe there are many innocent ways a fighter can have that happen to him with all that hectic stuff going on in 1-minute intervals, with buckets, sponge, water, ointments, injuries etc.
I think it's definitely true that Liston's detractors tend to leap upon his mob connections when it suits but shake their heads an cry "speculation" when those connections are raised to explain certain things that don't fit their view (the Ali fights being fixed, for example).
I dont know if that makes those victories any more (or any less) valued though. I mean, Louis beat Levinsky up in 1 round round, and Baer within 4. That's the bottom line. It's not relevant to my ranking of Louis whether or not those two men were scared shitless or not though.
When Baer was asked if he knows what fear is he answered: "Standing in the opposite corner of Joe Louis knowing that he wants to go home early." :good
There's a difference. Clay can clearly on film be seen to be blinded. You can't see on film that there's a fix - unless one goes down from a punch that didn't land. Which, of course, never happened. And SI article i'm referring to, was before Clay (or Dundee) was even in the picture. I can't comment on Walcott-Marciano because i've only seen highlights that don't show the blinded part. However, in the other examples, like Golota vs Byrd, Czyz vs Holyfield, none were easily in control until they suddenly started blinking their eyes badly and running/holding only. Nor did it fit as well within the flow of the fight, like Liston getting desperate and getting after that last cheating attempt didn't work out for him.
Yeah, they are very selective in what they believe reliable evidence or likely to have happened. If one guy says another guy said he "juiced" Sonny's gloves, it's quickly accepted into the historical account. But if ten guys say they heard from Sonny or some other insider that the fights were fixed, or ten seperate guys say Sonny told them the muslims threatened him, it's quickly dismissed as bull****.
Well your very keen to convict is all, because Liston was "desperate". We both know that's not nearly enough, anything like enough. The two Liston-Ali fights may be the most scrutinised fights in history and both are on film, and there are many photographs. No evidence exists of Liston's "cheating". You say you "can't comment on Walcott-Marciano because i've only seen highlights that don't show the blinded part". So? What, in the film, can be used to convict Liston aside from the fact that Ali was blinded? Which is just as confirmed in Walcott-Marciano? There is no evidence on film. You've brought a short list of circumstantial evidence with which you seem quite happy to convict Liston. I'd say the fact that there is no real evidence tells it's own story. But you're going to believe what you want to believe as far as this goes, a vacum of real evidence always allows for that. Basicallyt here is no point arguing about it because of this.
I'd say being in this condition http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...4MRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8egDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6377,1348193 is worse than having been knocked out. Patterson came back well from the losses to Liston. Partly because he got blasted out himself against an under-estimated Johansson. The truth is that Patterson had a lackluster reign with a lot of inactivity and several undeserving contenders when he finally did end up defending his title. As far as I know, Liston and Johansson made a better deal about the fight taking place in Canada but it never came off. Liston was then given a title shot and offered Johansson a shot at the title. http://books.google.fi/books?id=crMDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=johansson+liston+canada&source=bl&ots=hlOMlBq2aZ&sig=0fq03eHnUS-wHPdw7yoY_I4iHYg&hl=fi&ei=tjUBS9-JGdSH_AanqvGPCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=johansson%20liston%20canada&f=false
Yeah, the conspiracy theories conrerning the first fight being fixed are much more complex but there seems to be more actual evidence for them than there is for Liston's having blinded Ali. But people are very ready to believe the later whilst furiously dismissing the former. I guess it's a problem for people to believe anything that dents the Ali mystique (i'm speaking more widely here, not about Chris). What is undisputable is that Ali was blinded and did wonderfully well to survive. That's the worst i've seen Lison look on film outside of Martin, but it most assuredly could have been Ali's skill doing that work. Other than that, what can you really say?
Clay was blinded. Yes. No dispute. So, can you clearly see on film Liston's gloves being juiced ? Well, I'm talking about the post-fight article. If I remember rightly, Sports Illustrated article thought it innocent accident. I shall look for it. Please share the article you are refering to. Well, Liston seemed to go after him but what would you expect ? I mean, Liston's obviously aware that Clay's blinking or making a fuss about something, everyone could see that. That doesn't mean Liston was responsible though. Anyone would be expected to try to press the advantage. Clay being in control - "easily" according to you (I'm not so sure about that, Liston had come back well at the end of the 3rd round and the 4th was even.) - is irrelevant. Because **** happens, and when it happens it doesn't discriminate. I mean, assuming it was an innocent mishap, why would it be less likely to happen when Clay was doing well ?