cotto as brave as they come

I agree, if Bayless wanted to end matters the 9th or 10rds would have been the time imo.When he actually did so I think Cotto was in slightly better shape ,though obviously in survival mode.
Whoever manages Cotto should match him very wisely from now on ,imo,he has a lot of mileage from some very hard fights ,and the beating he sustained weekend is the type that stays with you, I would not be surprised to see him strugle at top level in the future, he has had a couple of career shortening beatings.

 

I saw Cotto try three different things in that fight. By plan 3 he just had little left. Just like Benn Mclellan, Pac just beat Cotto off of him until he had the strength advantage which was really even rather than Cotto having some advantage like most thought.
Nothing was really working. He was physical in the first four rounds, but he was getting countered very cleanly and getting hurt badly.
I think Cotto like Hatton and ODLH before him felt he would be able to just overpower Pac, and I really wasnt sold on him either as a full weltwerweight, but I am now. He punches very hard and in scary angles. Cotto even said it himself, he couldnt see those punches that were hurting him, and I think thats another reason he was forced to try and box from the outside, he was just getting hit way to cleanly and often in close. His corner also showed how pitifully green they were offering nothing but cheerleading.

 

What the **** are you talking about, bro? What stupid logic? The logic that concludes that a lighter, shorter man is smaller than a man who is taller and weighs more? Pacquiao was, in fact, smaller than Cotto. No one said anything about strength, except you. Size and strength are different things. All anyone said was that Pacquiao was smaller, not weaker.

 

Yeah, he took a sustained beating, and then decided to stop fighting, stop trying to win, and start backpeddling in an attempt to avoid punishment and finish the fight on his feet. Other fighters might have taken the same beating and still gone balls out to try and win the fight.

 

When your talking about boxing physically smaller man doesnt mean hes "shorter and weighs less in the ring" Your talking about who is stronger, who is capable of out strengthing the other opponent.
Yes Manny was shorter and weighed less, but what difference does that have to do with going balls out and going for a knockout when the smaller guy is just as strong or stronger in the fight?

 

"Other (and most), fighters would have taken the same beating and never made it to the 11th round.

 

Do you have problems with definitions of words or is English not your first language? You said you didn't think Cotto was bigger than Pacquaio, he is clearly bigger. Strength is a complete different issue, Pacquaio held his own strength wise but that doesnt increase his size

 

cmon guys its pretty obvious a guy that is taller and weighs more is bigger than the other guy. Thats a given. Dont think that was what was meant in the original post, but kind of stupid to argue over.

 

Cotto was stronger, but the difference didn't look all that large. If you showed this fight to a boxing expert who spent the last 10 years in a cave, he wouldn't class Pac as a featherweight, or even a former flyweight. Of course, that doesn't change that Manny came up a very long way, but he seems to carry it well.

As for Cotto, indeed he showed a lot of heart by hanging in there and doing quite okay during rounds 10-11, but he wasn't fighting to win anymore. I feel for him and i sort of know what he's going through. Last year i sparred with a heavyweight (in amateur weight classes, i'm barely a middleweight myself). When he landed a great southpaw straight left, i didn't go down, my body just seemed to say "stop". From there on, i just couldn't commit to throwing a full blooded power shot the way i did before, and i went Mayweather style from there on in.

Some people just have it and some don't. Thomas Hearns could no longer throw his huge bombs when Leonard (or several others) had him in trouble. Leonard, on the other hand, when a beaten and broken man, was still doing fantastic against Duran and gave every bit of himself winning the 14th and 15th in desperate attempt to grind out a victory. He didn't get the win, but the way in which he lost has impressed me extremely.

 

No it doesn't. When you say someone is smaller you're saying they're smaller. When you say they're stronger, you're saying they're stronger. Different words. If I actually wanted to discuss physical size, what words should I use since bigger and smaller automatically mean stronger and weaker rather that, you know, bigger and smaller?

Obviously, there's no disputing that. But other fighters would have taken the beating and still gone all out. All I'm saying is that Cotto is not as brave as they get. Brave? yes. As brave as anyone to step into the ring? no.

 

Let me ask you this question?
Why not look to land the perfect, fight-winning punch from the pocket against the smaller man?
How would you interpret this? What difference would it make in this context if Pac was "physically smaller" than Cotto? Now if he was talking about Pac being weaker or not as strong (the way I interpreted it), than certainly it would make a difference suggesting Cotto was stronger and able to do more damage if he landed "in the pocket".
As far as going balls out, he would have been knocked out. In my mind he showed more courage by trying to hang in there and switch it up and try a different strategy while being badly beaten up, swollen bleeding and weak.

 

I would interpret it exactly as it is written. The word "smaller" is clearly defined in the dictionary. The difference it might make is that Cotto being larger in stature and heavier in weight should have tried to go forward and impose his size. Pure size can be an advantage when used right as long as you're not terribly out-muscled by the smaller man. Anyway, I'm finished with that argument, we don't need to debate the meanings of words that we can look up in merriam-websters.

Next point, I suppose your view on the courage of Cotto comes down to your interpretation of his actions over the last few rounds of the fight. Unlike you, I don't believe he switched to pure defense with very little punching in order to find a new way to win. I'm convinced he stopped trying to win and was only trying to avoid punishment and survive, which is why I don't find him to be as brave as you do. When I watched the fight he was in full retreat, in the 11th and 12th he was only throwing when he had to to keep Manny off of him and he went long stretches trying to avoid any action at all. Avoiding a fight doesn't seem like the actions of a man dead-set on winning a fight.

 

He was being outmuscled after the fourth round. Cotto is actually an inch shorter than Pac so that is meaningless. Cotto weighed in a pound different, 144 to 145. Another meaningless point. Just because you naturally weigh more, even at fight time, doesnt always equate to being the more imposing fighter, in fact it can hurt a fighter more, as was the case with a weight drained ODLH.
As for your last paragraph, fighting on, rather than quitting or getting stopped on the ropes (like ODLH did), when you have nothing left, suggests one tough brave guy, the point of this thread. I think he gave all he could really, and he was avoiding getting stopped yes, but he was still punching back.
I think realistically at that point, he didnt have anything left physically to win. His punches were basically arm punches by the 8th or 9th round. Standing in the pocket with little strength would have made it alot easier for Pac to knock him out rather than trying to get Pac to walk into a shot which I believe was his last resort in the closing stages of the fight.

 

Cotto is a half inch taller than Pac according to boxrec and Wikipedia and what they weighed in at doesn't translate directly to how much they weighed in the ring. Cotto generally weighed in at 146 and comes in weighing around 160. Pac weighs in the mid 150's I think. At any rate, Cotto did have a size advantage and I think it was apparent he was larger in the ring.

I've never said that Cotto was anything less than a very tough and brave man. I said that not quitting and trying to make it to the finish line was a display of heart. But if Cotto really was backpeddling in an attempt to avoid punishment and was at that point only trying to survive and not get stopped, then I can't say that he's as brave as any man to ever step in the ring as your thread title implies. If you think he was still genuinely giving it his all and was still determined to win the fight up to the very end that's fine, but to me that viewpoint just isn't supported by his behavior in the ring.

Ok, I'm done.