Liston's resume and ranking

You exposed yourself so much with the posting I answered to, there just aren't any arguments necessary anymore.

 

Obviously the texture of my point. Quick on the uptake.

He's bouncing around an offensive-minded, attacking blown up middleweight. It was a recipe for disaster for Floyd. And not that Liston doesn't bounce him around impressively. I just don't give him a great deal of credit for it.

The only fighters to really make a dent in the heavies coming up that far were extremely defensive minded and extremely defensively skilled.

 

Floyd made the MMA Middleweight limit many times. :nono

 

That's hitting the nail on the head.

 

Not at all besides the point. Floyd was undersized for his tactics with the dawning era of larger, more skilled heavyweights, of which Liston represented something of a watershed figure. The middleweight comment was a slight exaggeration, of course, but Floyd did weight in the 160's for his early fights.

In the future, I will adhere to your necessity for strict wooden literalism.

 

I see you point, but it's a bit of an oversimplification. Don't forget that Patterson was nearing 40 when he beat Bonavena, the perhaps strongest and most powerful HW of that era next to Foreman. A huge win.

 

That's a pretty bold statement considering how close the same Clay came to losing to men like Henry Cooper and Doug Jones.

 

I agree. Yet many here will have you believe that less than two years later he was shot. :huh I guess it's the same kind of people who say that Tyson was "shot" against Douglas.

No, you can't see his gloves being juiced. Then again, you can't see his cornermen for the minute in the corner, either. Were Resto's cornermen filmed when they loaded his gloves? No, but it happened anyway...

About the article you requested - i'll get back with it later. I'm going to sleep soon and don't have it near, but it's out there. Old Fogey linked to it less than half a year ago.

By the way, i'm not saying that a SI article is sacred nor that it proves a fix, but it's interesting nonetheless. Did you know that even the Patterson fight had "fix" suspicions? I think this goes to show how unreliable reports are, and how they should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially in unfilmed days.

Clay was the ring general. He was deciding what was happening. Hell, even when he was blind, he wasn't shipping many big punches.

Edit - one more thing: that SI article also says that Liston's left was clearly damaged because he was carrying it by his waist all the time during the 6th, which is simply not true and can be seen not to be the case on film. Does take some of it's credibility away.

I agree it's only circumstancial evidence, but his cornerman also admitted it. Boxing is a fishy sport and you can never be sure, but it does look very suspicious to me.

 

Some say he had changed tactics for his late 60's/early 70's comeback.

 

Yeah, Bonavena was strong but he was a little one, 5-10, 205-ish. Also, Floyd had changed his ways by that time. Smart move on his part.

 

question...does a fighters class of competition define his 'greatness' or otherwise.....some of the greats are lauded although their competiton may not have been outstanding..i think liston, foreman and even tyson can be included in this category....liston defended once and beat a few good, big men..but he would most probably have shone in most eras with his remorseless, stalking offence, ramrod jab and heavy hands..he did not choose his level of competition, history did....ditto foreman..sure, he destroyed frazier..twice..but he lost to ali, had a herculean tussle with ron lyle and lost to jimmy young...again, not names to set the stratosphere on fire, but in any era, you gotta say big george, old or young, maynhave shone due to his attribuites.....tyson feasted on a generation of dope addled heavyweights with more appetite for recreation and procreation than dilligence and desire to maintain the lustre of the thorny crown of best big man..yet, again, few would argue that his ferocity, speed and power when in his brief prime would not have cut a similar swathe thru any era.......

it seems that as history dictates a boxers opponents and thus how they are remembered, sometimes we forget their respective skill levels should be as much a judge of their places in the anals of our bruising game as the collective victims of their poetic violence are....