Are sucessful title defences underrated ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Nov 17, 2009.


  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I mean, in assessing the worth of a fighter historically ?

    Outside of the truly ridiculously undeserving, the blatantly hand-picked and disappointingly uninspired challengers, it's usually the case that a champion has to fend off a decent fighter who is determined to win that title and fighting to his absolute best.

    It takes some doing. To do it again and again really takes some doing.

    I know a lot of people rate "wins over ATGs" and "multiple weight classes" but those things aren't as impressive as defending the title (a truly undisputed title especially) several times against hungry and able challengers, even if they aren't known as "ATGs".
     
  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As I stated in a previous thread I think a long line of defenses of an undisputed title should receive more credit. Just about every challenger will be at his best at that particular night while it's just another defense for the champ. There's always going to pop up at least one Douglas over a long title reign, but if the champion is good enough and committed enough he will overcome those hurdles.
     
  3. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I think it depends really. You have to take into consideration the competitions skill level regardless of the fact of how hungry they might be. There may simply be a poor group of contenders such as the case in the heavyweight division. Vitali Klitschko barely breaks a sweat to defend his title these days at almost 40 years old, and Calzahge for many years was fed a steady diet of very poor opponents, some just straight up comical really. Midwestern US tomato cans as title defenses that had no business being in the ring with him.
    Bernard Hopkins on the other hand, faced a pretty solid group of middleweights, and didnt really have a big strength advantage over his opponents, so he was truly earning his keep in my opinion.
     
  4. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Dominance should factor in and defending your title often is part of that.
     
  5. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I think they do get underrated yes. The kind of good/decent wins against contenders that get overlooked all contribute to a stacked resume.
     
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah, I cant argue with that. The proliferation of extra weight divisions and 2,3,4 versions of the world title at one time, and the corrupt ratings of corrupt sanctioning bodies contribute to the problem.

    Very true about the actual level of the challenger's ability. For example I give Larry Holmes some props for narrowly defeating a hungry Tim Witherspoon but nothing much for easily fending off Scott Frank, even though on paper you could argue both were "novices" with similar credentials. Frank wasn't much good, (though some challengers have been worse, and beyond the pale), and Witherspoon proved to be very good.
     
  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    On a related note, I think revenge wins over fighters-you-shouldn't-have-really-lost-the-title-to are totally overrated.

    It's almost a flipside of the same point. If Tyson beats Douglas in a rematch, that would have gotten him more credit than if he had beat him in the first place ! Look up Ali-Spinks and Lewis-Rahman ....
     
  8. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I do too, but revenge over an equally matched opponent, such as the case in Bowe Holyfield, certainly elevated Holy to a higher level.
     
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well, there should of course not be too much made out of defeating a guy you had no business losing to in the first case. But a very convincing revenge goes some way to stating that it was a one off. That's all really.

    There's one thing to have an off night against a second rater, and another completely if this second rater actually has your number. If Bowe had defeated Golota emphatically in the rematch, for example, there would be less room to make much out of the first one.
     
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    It did. It's a big win, monumental.
    But if Holyfield had seen off the challenge of 1992 Bowe we should be viewing that as even better, IMO. I mean, Bowe would never have been champion so probably wouldn't be as much of a "name" but we saw how good he was that night, and if Holyfield had beaten him first off that should count as much or more so. I guess that's all too hypothetical. I'm not sure any heavyweight champion has seen off any challenger as good and as peaked as Bowe was that night, but on the other hand if they had KO'd one in quick time we might not have even noticed !
    That's another difficulty. It's difficult to judge.
     
  11. Shake

    Shake Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A revenge match also shows that you overcame the style you felt victim to the first -- excuses are a dime a dozen, and the validity of them all become one big blurr over time. Better to just prove it, imo.
     
  12. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Definitely underrated as long as they are against fighters who are above average\competent.

    How often have we seen record's dismissed out of hand on this forum(mostly in general to be fair)because they didn't beat many or any "ATG'S!!!!!".
     
  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    It doesn't really say "one off", it say 1-1 against that particular guy. They cancel each other out.

    I mean, history is full of champions who won the title but couldn't hold on to it for more than a defence or two, and then lost to someone who they probably would have beaten had the champion-challenger roles been reversed.
    When it happens to a "great" fighter it's still basically the same thing happening. And just because the "great" fighter avenges it doesn't mean that anything strange occured first time out.

    What's actually strange or unusual is that "great" fighters who can string so many decent defenses together and fend off good challengers ACTUALLY EXIST.
     
  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I wrote: "goes some way to prove it was one off". It's better than not to have it. Louis' demolishion of Schmeling in the rematch didn't erase his loss, but it still makes his record look better.

    This I agree with.
     
  15. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Yes but up until that point, Bowe was still a huge question mark regardless of what Futch was telling everyone. That win did a lot for Bowe, and didnt take away too much from Holy because Bowe proved not to be a Buster Douglas type flash in the pan. The rematch made Evander even bigger with the win. I dont think it would have been the same had Evander gotten the nod, because people could have dismissed it as an off night for Evander against an underachieving opponent.