Heavyweight Tourney:Rd 3:Wladimir Klitschko .Vs. John L. Sullivan

You dont give him a chance against Sharkey? The end of Sullivans career coincided with the start of Sharkeys career. That was one hell of a year of refining done there! Actually they did fight exhibitions a few years after Sullivan retired. Wonder if Sullivan looked totally unrefined in those exhibitions?

 

I personally feel that Sullivans style would not have made much of a transition at all. I know how many fights he had before he fought Corbett, I know how jr was an advocate for gloves and probably adapted his style from bareknuckle to gloved, bit Sharkey clearly competed well with later Heavys. I never said I was an expert on those times anyway, only that I'm interested in that period and that based on the footage I've seen (including Fitzsimmons) I don't feel ANY of them, Corbett included would fare well against many post 1920 heavyweights. It's only from footage, and of course there is none of John L other than the squaring up he does as an older man, but as I say I'd love to be proven wrong. It's only opinion, you've made it clear you're not open to interpretation at all on the subject.

 

Fair enough, but what is it you understand about his style?

We really need one of those style posts that Cross trainer did with Fitzsimmons. In Sullivan, i imagine someone that punches with the same timing and power (roughly) of prime Tyson. He seems to have that Concussive style punch that takes away fighters equilibriums (to me). I dont think that he throws as many hooks or uppercuts as Tyson (although he might), but i think his combinations are more often the longer and straighter punches.

When people talk of skills, i really dont think that there is any doubt that skills does not include ability to throw a punch because he had all time KO power, imo. Defence is interesting. Unless i am mistaken, unlike those who came shortly after him, Sullivan actually employed a high guard not a low guard, from what i can understand. Again this is something that pioneers are often criticised for by people who say the sport evolved. I do get the feeling though that similar to Tyson, he switched the hands a little bit. AS we discuss further, it starts to get a little away from my knowledge and you need input from guys like Janitor or Cross trainer or even the greatest on this subject - Appollack.

In any case, my point is that given that at worst he is a huge puncher, with a first rate chin, first rate KO Power, and first rate heart and stamina, is it not almost certain that this is the type of fighter that Vlad would hate to fight the most?

 

This is a very good point that is often overlooked.

How good were his opponents? There are a few "key" opponents like Kilrain, but my impression is that the vast majority are local strongmen (whatever that is) who challenge the man that thinks he can lick any WHITE man in the saloon.

Were there even ratings at all? Information distribution was primitive back then. Even something that is trivial today, like traveling wasn't easy back then. Railroad construction was just starting in the 1870's. What about the rest of America?

What about all of the "colored" talent? What about European fighters? Australian? Latin American?

 

A problem that vexes any cross-era comparison. Klitschko comes from a larger talent pool than Ali, who comes from a larger talent pool than Louis, who comes from a larger talent pool than John L....if only because of raw population stats.

:think

 

Lets start by comparing Sullivan to fighters close to his time.

He was almost certainly the most destructive heavyweight puncher of the gloved era before Sam Langford came allong.

As a champion and an athletic talent he was a lot closer to the level of Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson than to Jim Corbett and Bob Fitzsimmons.

It is probably fair to say that Tommy Burns would not have had a cat in hells chance against him. When you get to sombody like Jack Sharkey enough has changed to create uncertainties but the smart money would have to be on Sullivans talent over Sharkeys inconsistency.

 

I will re post my detailed breakdown of Sullivans style based on Adam Pollacks research.

 

No wishing to get on at you but your impresion is based on predudice, presumption, guesswork.

Basicaly everything apart from researching the era.

 

Gain, it's more out of me not really rating Corbett based on the small footage of him. I know for a fat that Sullivan was very battleqorn by the time he fought Corbett die to all his barelnuckle contests plus advancing years and gloved boxing, but if he really were as phenomenal as you're suggesting, he shouldve been able to overcome a fighter that really didn't look all that to me. A I sayy knowledge isn't that great, I guess you could give me more of an indication of just how shot John L really was. I assume with his advanced skill and power he must nit have been that damaged even though he'd had so many fights. What are accounts like of his most important heavyweight gloved fights? Was he hard to hit as well as a hard hitter?

 

I think the decline of boxing's popularity since the 70's (or even 50's) has more or less compensated the increase in total population, keeping it somewhat constant. This is just a hypothesis though, but both factors undeniably have their influence. Since the 2000's, boxing's popularity (and necessity) has dropped to an all-time low in America, but at the same time, it's at an all time high in Eastern Europe, and they're allowed to turn pro, as are the Cubans.

 

Do you have fight records of his opponents? And i'm not talking about the three biggest names on his resume. How many opponents did they fought? In turn, what were their records? How much competition was there at all? Was there a ranking system? A New York Athletic commission that kept track of those things?

 

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Sullivan was far past his prime when he fought Jake Killrain.

He had shattered his left arm in a bout against Patst Cardiff which basicaly made him into a one armed fighter as oposed to the two fisted attacker of his heyday. He had a severe bout of fever which nearly killed him and was actualy on crutches when he signed the contract to fight Killrain. Add to this the fact that years of alcoholism had disipated him.

He was prety much an empty shell when he fought Corbett.