Fighters who are often lauded as all time greats.....

I never thought Marquez was great. No one mentions the John fight.

 

To be honest I dont like the term all time great. I think as someone else said how great certain guys were is very subjective anyway.

 

Are you saying MAB is a top 50 ATG?

 

I'm saying that the gap between 50-70 is not terribly huge, and that Marco Antonio Barrera ultimately achieved enough throughout his career to be recognized as an all-time great fighter. I mean, I can only ask you what your criteria is. Marco delivered in all of the key areas. By your own admission, he has one of the best resumes of the last 20 years. His longevity is fabulous, commentators and pundits alike were suggesting he had seen his best days as early as 1997 after his defeat to Jones. He gave us two of the greatest action fights of the last 20 years, one of the greatest performances of the last 10 years, and he overcome the odds...countless times.

No way is Marco falling short of ATG status. Not on my watch.

 

It depends on what you want ATG to mean.

Is there a difference between Ezzard Charles and Marco Antonio Barrera? Yes, of course there is, a colossal difference.

Should there be a label to distinguish between these two levels? Yes, I believe there should.

I call one an All-Time Great, and one a great fighter.

 

In one sentence, you tell me what an All-time great fighter is in your mind? What does it take to be labeled as such?

There's a big difference between Muhammad Ali and Manny Pacquiao, but you're content to call them both All-time greats.

 

Just out of intrest who do you have between 45-50. Because i'd be willing to bet whoever they are there would be a colossal difference between them and a charles, robinson, greb level of fighter as well.

 

I rank Pacquiao far higher than I rank Barrera though. In terms of numerical placings, I have Pacquiao (20-30) much closer to Ali (7th) than I do to Barrera (I honestly can't remember where he was in my last list, I think somewhere around 75-85).

I'm not sure if there can be a sentence to express what an ATG is, but I just don't think it should apply to the ten or fifteen best fighters of every era. That devalues it. If Barrera is an ATG, is Ricardo Lopez? James Toney? Juan Manuel Marquez? Kostya Tszyu? Joe Calzaghe? Winky Wright? Felix Trinidad? Shane Mosley? How many Greats for All-Time can each era spawn?

 

I haven't written an up-to-date top 100. Off the top of my head, I believe guys like Ruben Olivares, Roy Jones Jr, Holman Williams, Evander Holyfield and Terry McGovern would occupy that sort of region. I don't know if there is much value in my post as for all I know those placings could be well out if I actually wrote the list, but I do think there is a difference between these guys and Barrera. I do think there should be a demarcation between them.

 

Ricardo Lopez - Barrera fought better opposition, beat better opposition, and won more world titles in more weight classes over an extended period of time.

Juan Manuel Marquez - Barrera fought better opposition at Featherweight than Marquez, and beat better fighters in general. Marquez lacks a signature win.

James Toney - He's a certified ATG. McCullum x2, Nunn, coupled with his success in moving up in weight and his technical ability.

Kostya Tsyzu - Same thing, Barrera beat better primed opposition, and spanned more weight divisions thus winning more titles.

Joe Calzaghe - ...Don't get me started.

Winky Wright - Best wins came against smaller opposition, whereas Barrera gets little credit for beating fellow ATG Super Flyweight Johnny Tapia at 126lbs. Barrera holds better wins when taking into proper perspective, and he was at the top for longer, spanning more division and winning more world titles.

Felix Trinidad - Barrera beat better opposition...once again.

Shane Mosley - An ATG in my judgment. Oscar De La Hoya x2, Antonio Margarito, coupled with his insane longevity and his supremacy displayed at 135. Also been successful through the divisions, bounces back from defeat.

Marco Antonio Barrera clearly separated himself from the majority of those names by hitting every criteria. Longevity? Fantastic. Resume? Wonderful. Skills? Never in dispute.

 

Why? Just, why?

 

All much of a muchness. I'd say some of them have earned Great status, but none should be considered Greats for All-Time. And you know what a big Toney fan I am.

Pacquiao, Jones, Hopkins. Those are the only three from our era I think make the cut. There's no shame in being a Great. It's great to be a great!

 

So if you are taking this into account, why aren't you argueing Ricardo Lopez as an ATG? You are frankly insane if you don't regard him as great and he doesn't crack a top 50/60 list at the very least.

 

Fair enough, i'd probably rank all of them above barrera as well, but say you have your tight riged only top 50 are ATG surely while you would consider these fighter ATG now in 10-15 years there likely to fall further back as new truly great fighters come along to take there place?

 

:verysad I think I could make a strong arguement for Marco Antonio Barrera being a top 50 level fighter, but only if you tell me you you'd have at 40-50. I don't even think his losses to Jones and Pacquiao detract from his greatness, because he rebounded from both, against all the odds. He never faded into obscurity, which an ordinary fighter would have done. I know you aren't saying Barrera is ordinary, you're saying he's great and it's great to be such. ...I say Marco will be talked about still in a 100 years time, and he'll forever be recognized as one of the best Mexican fighters that ever lived. His status will only grown as time passes.