Liston -vs- Holyfield:

As ChrisPontius said, I doubt Liston was out-and-out stronger than Lennox Lewis.

 

Let me begin by dismissing any comparison between Tyson and Liston in terms of physical strength. Tyson doesn't compare.
I figured there would be a couple of dissents with the 'strength' statement. You and Jimmyshimmy have stepped forward. This debate was done ad nauseum some months ago, and I wish I could just reference that debate... alas...

I place Liston and Foreman at top of the heap in that order when it comes to physical strength. Lennox is up there to, but behind them. I stand by the assertion that Liston was stronger than Lennox.

In sum, Liston was a juggernaut. His center of gravity was lower and he was thick all over. Lennox was longer and his strength was more dispersed over his frame. Earlier in his career, he could be moved and later as he gained weight, he was stronger, but just not at Liston's level.

If you look at the stats, they are comparable. You would think that Lennox would be bigger all over because of his height and what appears to be a great width on camera, but it's not so. The only big difference are height and weight -and again, Liston's weight was forced into a smaller space. Height is not a great indicator of strength although the layperson assumes exactly that. In fact, it may hurt the strength factor. To wit: Barbadoes Joe Walcott. Long guys can be expected to be weaker than juggernauts.

There is also a big difference of 3 inches in their fists. Liston's fist was 15 inches. Lewis's was 12.

Foreman's testimony has to be taken with a grain of salt, but when he said that the only man that he could not move in the ring was Liston, I believe it. It strikes me as credible.

 

Haha! Yes, Foreman went loopy in his second coming. In Champions Forever, he said that he feared Joe Frazier and was hoping during the pre-fight instructions that Joe didn't look down because his "knees were knocking."

Such bull. After Joe was down for like the umpteenth time, George stands over him posturing and yells something at the prostrate champ. It wasn't anything like "I'm afraid!"

 

In a clinch it's a disadvantage to have a low center of gravity because the taller guy will simply lean on you, which is definitly gonna happen when there's a size disparity as large as 5 inches.

Lewis was longer but also wider framed than Liston. He's roughly 6% longer but 6% heavier than Liston would be around 225lb. He in fact weighed around 244lb.

Watch Lewis-Weaver. This fight happened early in his career. Lewis shoves Weaver back effortlessly. Weaver, who is slightly larger than Liston and known for his incredible physical strength. Weaver was in or near his 40's, but strength is one of those things that increases as you get older. Lewis shoved back a lot of opponents. Notice that for the Weaver fight, Lewis hadn't filled out his 244lb frame yet.

Let's look at the stats:
Liston: 6'0 212 lb
Lewis: 6'5 244 lb

You may bring up some calve measurement or whatever but they don't say ****. Some lightheavyweights only have an inch or so less than superheavyweights. Does that make them "actual superheavyweights"? No, of course not. Weight is the telling figure here provided both are in shape, which they are.

I already pointed out that Lewis would've been around 225 if he had the same frame as Liston, but clearly he doesn't. And in clinches a height advantage of 5 inch will definitly lead to the taller man leaning on the smaller one.

I guess Liston must be a lot stronger because of his bigger fists then.

As you said yourself, Foreman has little to no credibility when it comes to stories and legends. "I was hurt in the Frazier fight", "Audley Harrison will be the next undisputed champion and reign for years, no doubt about it", etc etc.



Regardless of this debate though, i think Holyfields speed is going to be a deciding factor because he easily outspeeds the relatively slow Liston.
Strength won't be THAT much of a factor... i think we can agree that even when you think Liston is stronger than Holyfield, there's not a world of difference between them. Holyfield did tons of weight training which certainly made him very strong.

 

We were talking about strength, not punching power.

On top of that, Valuev does not have a lot of talent for boxing, he is simply HUGE and has an insane ability to absorb concussive damage which makes it possible for him to compete with top level boxers, but he's no Lewis or Liston.
Lewis and Liston both had great talent for boxing and punching power.

 

This is all theoretical but I don't agree with much of what you say, except for the leaning part. Lennox leans on him. Okay. Liston shoves him off. If these two are both coming forward, you'll see Liston as the bull, not Lewis.

You also fail to account for disposition. Lewis did not have that ex-con, **** the world attitude that Liston had. Lewis was not a menace. Liston was... and he gets the edge between the ears. Attitude is everything.

Your calculations have a thousands false positives. And the fact remains that Lewis was longer and his strength was dispersed. Liston was the juggernaut. Look at the bench press. Short guys throw up more weight than long guys. Shorter guys are stronger if you apply a ceterus parabis because their strength is more concentrated. You dismiss that too easily.

Sure, but so what? Lewis didn't usually fight behind physical strength... he would move backwards, he would step around, he would use strategy. The site of Lewis being lifted and thrown off balance pretty easily was not uncommon. Mercer was stronger than him and demonstrably so -and that was after Lewis had filled out.

Really?

Now look at Michael Grant's stats and watch your theory implode.

Grant: 6'7 250 lb.

The point is simple. Lewis was a tall man with good size and the expected strength that attends that size. Liston had that freakish, leaden strength that you find every now and then in some guys. His fists were monstrous and his reach was as long as Lewis's. You won't find that very much.

You should read the context of what I said and take a look at McGrain's response above.

Holyfield's weight training strength was artificial. Liston's strength was God-given. The latter should be favored -sans steroids. And I think that this bout would indeed come down to strength first and foremost because Holyfield's "Warrior" label on his trunks would say "worn-out" by about round 9. Liston was too strong for him and would take those shots and put Holyfield squarely on the defensive. Are you going to tell me that Evander was comfortable there?

Holyfield has the speed edge but power goes to Liston and skill goes to Liston in my opinion. Strength would be the deciding factor considering that Holyfield would have to sacrifice his normal strategy and his disposition, or get manhandled. Liston ain't Tyson.

 

Sorry, i totally forgot that Listons menacing ex-con **** the world attitude made him quit twice in his biggest fights.

Lewis has never been intimidated nor quit blatantly like that.

Be welcome to point them out.

As i've pointed out before, Lewis is wider than Liston despite the big height advantage. And it's not a bench pressing contest in the ring. During a clinch it's very easy when you can lean on the other guy. This costs a ton of energy and frustation for the other, as he has to fight gravity of the taller man as well.

How did Mercer demonstrate that? It was Lewis who leaned on him and who tied him up when he wanted to.

Note that of the last 4 rounds, Lewis lost only 1 round. Mercer was tiring badly from that leaning on him. Lewis threw 40% more punches than Mercer, yet still it was Mercer who tired.

I wouldn't be suprised if Grant was stronger than Lewis. He certainly wasn't weaker, going by the few minutes they shared in the ring.
There's less difference, though. Lewis was 247 lb against 250 lb Grant.
That's 3 pounds difference. Between Lewis and Liston the difference is ten TIMES more than that and 5 inches in height, instead of 2.

His wingspan was as long as Lewis, but because Lewis is taller he will be the one with the longer actual "reach".

I did and i still don't find Foremans words credible. It may or may not have been true, but i don't trust his word on it.
Interesting sidenote is that Foreman is roughly to Liston as Liston is to Marciano in size.

Holyfield fought tons of guys with God-given strength but he nearly always come out on top with his artificial strength. Steroids or not.
Holyfield will probably be the counter puncher which is a good strategy because Liston is so slow. As i've said before, if he fights stupid as he did often then he loses, maybe by knockout.

I don't think Liston has that much of a skill advantage. Holyfield is very skilled; dominated Dokes, Thomas, Douglas, old Foreman & Holmes, squeezed out a win against a much bigger man in Bowe, manhandled Tyson quite easily when past his best even when exchanging punches (counter punching) at close range.
Liston and Tyson don't compare well except for power and height. Holyfield had little trouble blocking Tysons attacks and countering him though, and Tyson is lightyears ahead of Liston in terms of both hand and footspeed.

 

Clay was not considered his biggest fight by any stretch. He didn't train and it showed. He was 5 years past his prime. The second fight was a fix. Liston was mean and he was nasty. Do you deny this? Attitude matters in ping-pong and it matters much more in boxing. Liston fought like the stronger man. Lewis often didn't.

If Blinky Palermo and co. could intimidate Liston, they would have intimidated Lennox Lewis, trust that.

As per the false positive point... change the thousands to millions. Just because a guy have height and weight does not necessarily translate into superior strength in combat or in strength contests. Hell, even in the strong man contests in Europe, the biggest guy usually does not win.

Watch the fight again... and ask yourself this question: who is the bull and who is the matador? If you can't see that Mercer is the one forcing Lewis to the ropes and moving him backwards, then I don't know what to tell you. Sure, Lennox would shove him off at times, but who was the boss in there in terms of strength? Mercer. Who was the better boxer? Lewis. (By the way, Mercer got tired during the last rounds in every fight he was ever in.)

Your whole argument about superior strenght revolves around 2 points: the height and weight factor, which is simply inadequate, and the "who's leaning on who" factor -which is not the same as physical strength. To decide who the stronger man, I'd say we determine who is moving who, who is the bull, and who is the matador, or who would be better suited as the matador.

Come on! Grant looked like a limp rag doll within a minute in there. He is a lanky man with muscle.

..not if Liston is smashing his chest and sternum which is straight across. Let's not forget that Lewis often fought smaller too when he warred.

... And Marciano was enormously strong.

Holyfield came out on top because of his determination, underrated punching power, precision, and chin. Liston is slower but his shots were so heavy it wouldn't matter. Liston would be tearing Holyfield's athletic waistline up and banging his arms. Also, Liston had a good repertoire of shots that you seem to overlook. Holyfield would counter him but he would exchange with him just as much... and he'd be forced on the backfoot at the same time.

Holyfield didn't fight stupid -he based his game on his will and bravery even when it wasn't in his best interests. That is why Liston would win. Too much artillery. Too concussive a jab. Too much strength.

I agree that Holyfield is well-schooled, but we agree that Liston has the edge here, however slight.

 

liston would stop holyfield.

 

Let us into your head. How and why would Liston stop Holyfield? Granted you run the risk of crucifixion if your argument is found wanting, but this isn't the general forum. You are encouraged to share your reasoning, even if you have to defend it.

 

Well, Liston had that very imposing look about him. I always thought that he would try to scare his opponents to death. Same with tyson, he intimidated his opponents too. But we all know that it didnt work against Holyfield. So i dont think that holyfield would have been scared. He would have tried to avoid listons jab, and use his inside game.

It could go either way i think, but neither by KO. Points the likeliest, then tko.


Liston by points.

 

Fair enough --Holyfield was described by Duva as having "ice water in his veins." He was fearless.

 

5 years past his prime? He just came off his career best wins & performances. If his prime ended in 1959, then when did it start? 1958? That'd be a very short prime, especially for a boxer-puncher.
Liston was mean and nasty against smaller men that he could beat. When he was in against someone who frustrated him and outboxed him, he quit on his stool and didn't look particularly mean and nasty in doing so.

No, but the bigger guys do lift more on average and i think we can agree that both Lewis and Liston score on the higher end of the scale in terms of strength. When that's the case i'd rather go with the bigger guy.

Yes, Mercer has a come-forward style and Lewis tied him up when he wanted to and controlled him there. Of course he didn't do this especially early in the fight which caused him to lose a lot of rounds.
I'd say Lewis was the boss in terms of strength. If we're talking about who can take a better shot yet keep plodding forward, then it's Mercer of course.

In the end these things are impossible to decide. Sometimes a fighter is wild and wastes a lot of energy on moving the bigger guy around for a few rounds and looks stronger because of that, sometimes a fighter doesn't bother to do anything in the clinches even when he probably can (Tyson for instance).
Who would be moving who? I think Lewis will move Liston around because he is bigger, has proven strength against BIG opponents, not cruiserweights like Liston and he can lean on him whenever he wants.
Liston will probably come forward because he's the smaller man. So Lewis will play the matador.

Yeah that's because he has a weak chin and after he got nailed once or twice he never got his legs back. But it's not like Lewis threw him around or anything. His punches did that, not his strength in terms of pushing, shoving or anything.

Yep he could.. that was Lewis' weakness. Although i think a jab to the nose scores more points than a jab to the sternum.

Fighting on will and bravery when it isn't in your best interest is fighting stupid in my opinion. It's a great, crowd pleasing style but also one that makes you lose fights when you don't have to.
And yes, if he fights stupid than Liston has the edge, no doubt about it.

Hmm, i'd say Liston and Holyfield are roughly equal in strength - if there is difference between them then i don't think it will be enough to become a major factor in the fight. A bit like Lewis vs Klitschko, roughly equal strength.

 

I think Duran peaked in 1978. I think Ali peaked in 1967. I surmise that Robinson peaked in the late 40's somewhere. It's tough to call because there is little film of Robinson as a WW and there is not much of Liston either. From what I see, that was the year that Liston was in the midst of a KO streak against contenders. He was hungry and was forcing a title shot by clearing the field.

Ahhh, you simplify Liston. I'd bet my car that 1959 Liston ruins 1964 Clay.

I prefer the juggernaut. Powerhouse 'squares' are stronger than Athletic V's.

If Mercer is coming forward, and Lewis was coming forward, then the one who moved backward is safely assumed to be less strong. Lewis didn't fight like that and I am not so sure that he should be assumed stronger since he is taller and heavier.

True... Lewis was smarter for stepping around at angles and stepping backwards to achieve punching room. A while back posters were saying that Tyson was weak because he didn't do much in the clinch. Tyson was explosive and took the clinch as a rest ---which is smart. I always took them as mini-breaks, not 'tests of strength'. Boxing is about punching not wrestling.

Lewis will sacrifice the status of bull. You say it will be strategic, I agree but add to it that he will find Liston too strong to bull around.

Grant never looked physically powerful in there. He was too long. Now if he were a very large square, then there you go. He was a V and V's are not powerlifters... they are "body builders". Grant was an athlete with the attitude of an athlete (there it is again!). He was no killer. He had no malicious intentions. I think weak chins are often (not always) connected to unsure brains. Think Descartes: "I think [my chin is iron] therefore I am [therefore it is]."

Holyfield has risen far beyond where he would have been expected to rise considering his small frame. He did it "his way" and I would stop short of calling his strategy against Dokes, Tyson, et al. fighting "stupid". So the circle is complete: Holyfield was able to impose his will against those two strong men. He wasn't able to do the same against Bowe and Lewis. Neither would he against Liston. We all have our limits. Styles do too. Liston would beat him because of who Holyfield was and how he virtually always fought -not because of how he 'should' fight.

Put it this way, if you were his trainer, and you were able to do for him what Steward did in Bowe II, I'd give Holyfield a better shot.

.
Nah, Liston is far stronger than Holyfield. Holyfield was surprisingly strong, but he is not in Liston's league. I take 'natural' over 'artificial' all day.