P4P: Make a list purely on ability

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Addie, Nov 24, 2009.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Monzon is a good one...Charles, I think Moore looks better on film to me...of course, we don't have very much Charles at LHW, maybe you've seen some of him there? What do you think?
     
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    #76
  2. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    A bit below.

    I've never seen Robinson as the nearest thing to invincible.
     
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    #77
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I would have Louis at the very top of a second tier.

    Robinson wouldn't be your #1/#2?
     
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    #78
  4. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Just thought harles deserved a mention as theres about 20 guys i could have on that level Moore included.

    I do think he is good on film personally but i havent saw enough of him just some of his Heavyweight fights which impressed me. Also some reports i have read on him make it clear to me how good he was. Shame we dont have more on him.

    Monzon isnt talented in the traditional sense he dosent fight in a way that makes him look great does he? but can you name any Middleweight that you definitly think beats him?
     
    GPater11093, Nov 25, 2009
    GPater11093, Nov 25, 2009
    #79
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I agree that Charles looks excellent on film; I just feel like Charles's best stuff isn't on film. Arguably Moore's best stuff isn't on film either, but if I was forced to make a judgement on who was better purely based upon what i'd seen i'd go for Moore.

    Monzon belongs in that company, don't doubt it. I'd tend to pick Greb and Robinson over hm but definitetly? I wouldn't even bet your cash against Monzon at MW.

    How do you think he gets along with Dick Tiger?
     
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    #80
  6. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Fair enough like i was saying i dont necessary rate Charles higher just there on the same level and i mentioned Charles as i felt he deserved it rather than say someone who had already been mentioned. In fact one of the most impressive performances i have seen is Archie Moore vs Joey Maxim (is it 1 or 2 where Moore wins the title) never seen such a great display of defence while coming forward in taht bobbing weaviing countering style. very impressive.

    You can just maybe favour a fighter over Monzon but you cant be 100% or even 80% sure. I think he beats Tiger. He can keep it at long range and keep Tiger at range who wasnt the quickest on his feet. Tiger is kinda a cross between Valdez and Briscoe (loosely) gives Monzon some trouble but ultimatly Monzon can keep him at range with the 1-2
     
    GPater11093, Nov 25, 2009
    GPater11093, Nov 25, 2009
    #81
  7. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    Goes in tiers. And there's not really much separating them:

    Tier 1: Armstrong, Duran, Robinson, Pep, Charles, Whitaker

    Tier 2: Hagler, Monzon, Jones, Louis, Napoles, R. Leonard

    Tier 2.1: Williams, Rodriguez, Moore, Saddler, C. Ortiz

    Tier 3: H. Johnson, Tiger, Gavilan, Buchanan, Chocolate, Qawi

    Tier 4: Basilio, Fullmer, Ambers, Carter, Arizmendi, Bivins

    Tier 5: Wright, Ramirez, Maxim, Joyce, Sharkey...

    ... And so on. Anything up to Tier 3 could be in with a very good chance of beating a Tier 1. Tiers 4-5 would be considered upsets.
     
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    #82
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :good


    The thing that strikes me about Monzon is he almost always "breaks" his men on one level or another - see where i'm at with this? I say nearly...anyway, as well as being a hugely aggressive pressure counter-puncher, Tiger is also unbreakable. Wouldn't you agree? You can't take it away from a prime Tiger by beating him up...he would just take it and keep coming. Discipline. Heart. Courage. Durability. Stamina. All 10/10 for Dick. I wonder...be a very, very hard fight for Carlos I think.
     
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    #83
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    IMO, based upon what's on film rather than what makes up a fighter's legacy you're low-balling Moore here. But I can see you are off on a slightly different tangent.

    Olivares? Which tier?
     
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    #84
  10. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    So you think Moore was better than Ike Williams? Carlos Ortiz?

    All were great and more than capable of taking out specific Tier 1s. They were also beatable.

    Olivares, 2.1.
     
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    #85
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Aye.

    Aye.
     
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    #86
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I'll throw in Dempsey.

    And Larry Holmes. And Kid Chocolate.
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 25, 2009
    Unforgiven, Nov 25, 2009
    #87
  13. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

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    Bollocks. Greater, yes, due to his astounding resilience.
     
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    Manassa, Nov 25, 2009
    #88
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well it's certainly not "bollocks". At the very worst it's slightly wrong with, as your contesting, the sliver in quality i have between them non-existant.

    Moore v Foster, who you got?
     
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    McGrain, Nov 25, 2009
    #89
  15. wellsini

    wellsini Boxing Addict Full Member

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    1. Sugar Ray Robinson - who's gonna argue with this one?

    2. Pernell Whittaker - for the same reasons as teeto he was ****ing beautiful to watch!

    3. Roy Jones Jr - If only he had an iron clad chin!

    4. Lennox lewis - Box could lennox box! Lazy ******* though!

    5. Roberto Duran - 60 KO's rediculous armoury

    6. Sugar Ray Leonard - the guy took legends to school

    7. Floyd Mayweather - Sorry everyone

    8. Oscar De La Hoya - Please?? No but really!

    9. Evander Holyfield - Purely because his boxing ability and heart saw him become undisputed cruiserweight AND heavyweight champ

    10. Montell Griffin - Just ask James Toney!
     
    wellsini, Nov 25, 2009
    wellsini, Nov 25, 2009
    #90
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