Fighters who are often lauded as all time greats.....

No, he isn't. Harada had much bigger wins than Tszyu and was successful across more weight classes.

 

You have, like most Floyd apologists eventually do, now lapsed into overly defensive delusion mode where you manage to convince yourself (through pedantic over-analysing) that it's not even possible that Floyd could have fought anyone other than who he did fight, when really you, me, Floyd, Fiddy Cent and Triple H all know he could have if he really wanted to.

He fought:

Mitchell
Baldomir
Judah
Hatton
Marquez

At the same time in the same division were:

Mosley
Cotto
Margarito
Williams
and Tszyu in the division below

If you genuinely believe that Floyd fought the best opponents he possibly could have, and that fights against the five guys named were indeed impossible, good luck to you mate, but you are in a tiny minority, both within the boxing community and even among fans of Floyd, most of whom acknowledge that he definitely could have fought better comp at ww.

 

Who said either of these issues have any importance or even relevance to this discussion?

Whitaker, Leonard, Jones and Mayweather are four greats, four of the most skilled fighters of the past 30 years. I think that is a generally recognized and accepted truth.

One of Whitaker's greatest performances was a comprehensive victory over Azumah Nelson.

One of Ray's was Wilfred Benitez.

One of Roy's was James Toney.

And the equivalent for Floyd would be Diego Corrales.

Had Floyd fought and schooled Shane Mosley, then that feat would certainly rank alongside the other three because Mosley is a comparable talent and an established great. Chico is neither, so Floyd's flagship schooling isn't good enough to be placed alongside the rest, although his skills may be.

 

WTF is this ****????

atsch:roll:

 

The guy's f'n talkin to himself, what a ******

And all because he hates meatsch

 

I didn't even know that FJB1 **** knows why he was acting as if I was friends with that alias

 

Maybe that's where we get into arguments. If one guy says ATG and means top 1-200 and another guy thinks it means top 50, etc.

 

Think you'd change your tune about Willie, c20, had you seen him fight live in the '40s...Not enough superlatives to do him justice...and that's spending 90% of his time in gin mills 'n the track.

 

I would call fighters like Barrera and Pacquiao ATG fighters. But I do agree that there is an Elite club but I don't think it would include as many as 50 fighters. The ones that come to mind (in no particular order)

Robinson, Armstrong, Ali, Duran, Charles, Pep, Louis, Hagler, Monzon, Ray Leonard, Ross, Arguello, Whitaker.

I'm sure there are more but not many.

Also anything pre 1930 and I'm struggling as I havn't really looked into it to much. Obviously most people would put forward Langford and Greb but I just don't know enough about them.

 

Marquez is considered to be a masterful, technical boxer by most. The thing is he is easy to hit and has lost many rounds to mediocre world level opponents, it just doesn't add up. He is over appreciated, mostly thanks to style that Pacquaio has a phobia of.

Jake LaMotta. The weakest ATG out there. Predictable, one handed fighter.

Anyone LaMotta beat whilst they were in their prime without a massive size disparity. To lose to this fighter LaMotta in your prime is embarrassing.

James Toney, again considered a master boxer. One who was easy for the elite and Samuel Peters to outbox? He had a great fighting mentality and poise, but he wasn't that great an all round boxer really. People tend to focus on the Jirov (who wasn't really that great) fight and ignore all the losses and close decisions that could have gone against him. Montell Griffin was probably a better fighter.

 

This shows poor knowledge

1. No Tyszu wasnt in the division below Mayweather, EVER, Mayweather beat the man who beat Tyszu into retirement
2. Fights were offered to Mosley and Margarito, to Mosley numerous times
3. Cotto/Margarito were Arrum fighters and hard to make fights with
4. At the time he fought Judah and Baldomir, those 2 fighters were Rated 1 and 2 in the division, Judah was rated top10 P4P when they made their fight (he lost after the fight was made)
5. Delahoya and Hatton were the biggest most demanded fights in the sport at the time. Now Pacquaio-Mayweather is the biggest fight in the sport and guess what its happening

 

Oh yeah, involved in one of the most one sided fights ever seen in which he was the unfortunate owner of the most embarassing KO ever known to man, most over weight and irritating figher I have ever seen, and a man who lost to Samuel Peters twice. Greatness is also defined by how you conduct yourself and your career. Calling out David Haye at 41 years and 240 lbs through an irritating trash fight hype site is not class or greatness, the fella is a disgrace.

 

I use to agree with you alot Addie. Ricardo Lopez and now Oscar:huh Especially Oscar :-(
Only Hopkins ever beat Oscar convincingly (wont count Pac) and ive gone back and forth on that Whittaker fight to many times on this thread to go on again. Bottom line that fight was not controversial Oscar won a close but convincing decision 115-112. I had Quartey up by 1 point going into the last round but Oscar scored the KD and almost a tko. So I thought Oscar pulled it out 114-113. He beat Tito 116-112 Mosley II ihad 115-113 Oscar. Even in the first one 115-114 Shane. I had Mayweather by 1 or 2 points. His only gift was against Sturm.
Bottom line Oscar was a beast at the lighter weights and an elite fighter in the late 90s and in this decade. My eyes dont decieve me when i see a prime Oscar i see an elite fighter and an ATG.
What happened Addie i know you are a big Vargas guy and always talk about how good he was. You dont think that was an impressive win for Oscar? Also Chavez was past his best but he was still pretty good when Oscar beat him. Not to mention M Gonzalez,Molina,Hernandez,Leija,Ruelas, Carr,Rivera,Castallejo,Mayorga,Camacho,Yori Boy,Gatti,Coley and at least anotherr 1/2 dozen quality guys. He fought more quality fighters than anyone in the last 20 years. There are many great fighters that would have come out with some losses if they fought the competition that Oscar fought.

 

The difference in opinion comes in his losses. I felt Trinidad and Mosley II were debatable and therefore I don't credit him with the victories. Likewise, I don't find the Sturm fight all that debatable, or the fact that Mayweather, Hopkins, Mosley, and Trinidad all beat him according to the record books regardless.

Skillwise, Oscar didn't posses much of a right hand and he was often controlled by Ike and Mosley in their fights. He didn't really change up mid-fight like great fighters are expected to do, but I do credit him for at least trying to close the show against Ike, instead of embarrassing himself like he did against Trinidad in the championship rounds.

I credit Oscar for being a great fighter. He fought everyone, but he seemed to fall short against fellow greats.