Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

horst · Nov 26, 2009

Manassa said: ↑

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Let's first establish that Ross was not just another lighter weight champion of his day - he was an exciting and popular champion who drew massive crowds and hype, much like Oscar De La Hoya in today's boxing world.

Let us also realise that the man was a genuine war hero, awarded the Silver Star for his nothing-more-than sheer heroic exploits during the second world war. Not that this has any effect on his boxing rating, but learning this fact may be the first breeze to help sway your opinion. That is, if there is actually anyone out there who doesn't already know about Ross.

Why should Barney Ross be in everyone's top ten? If I were to guess, I shouldn't think many more than 5% of us include him at present - he tends to normally be recognised as a good triple weight champion and features in the lower top twenty or sometimes thirty.

Let's continue with how good a performer he was. In an era where even the greats seemed to lose regularly, he was the epitome of consistency and professionalism at its finest, retiring with a record of 72-4-3, somewhat helped by his glorious amateur career in the '20s where he honed his craft over two hundred and fifty unpaid bouts. Ross was thought to be the best fighter since Benny Leonard and perhaps on par.

Professional championship credentials?:

- Lightweight champion, one defence.

- Light welterweight champion, ten defences.

- Two time welterweight champion, two defences.

Had Ross existed in a weaker era, he'd probably have reigned supreme. He did anyway - but we'd be talking about title defence figures in the twenties.

Ross' record against Ring rated opponents*:

Ray Miller
Johnny Farr (x2)
Tommy Grogan
Joe Ghnouly
Sammy Fuller
Pete Nebo
Frankie Klick (x2)
Bobby Pacho (x2)
Baby Joe Gans
Ceferino Garcia (x3)
Chuck Woods (x2)
Izzy Jannazzo

Battling Battalino
Billy Petrolle (x2)
Tony Canzoneri (x2)
Jimmy McLarnin (x2)

*End of year ratings, Hall of Famers in bold

Compared to the rest of my own top ten, Ross' record is slightly thin on the quantity of contenders side of things, even though he beat world challengers more times than Carlos Ortiz, for instance. However, like Ortiz, Ross' proved to be the best of a strong era at the top end of the scale. What also bodes well for him is the fact he rarely lost. Between his loss to Roger Bernard, still in the early days of his relatively short career, and his final stand against Armstrong, Ross went 55-1-1 over a seven year span. The only loss came against Jimmy McLarnin - the draw, controversial, at the hands of contender Frankie Klick.

Going by my own list, he beat two fighters in the top twenty pound-for-pound, in their prime, going 4-1.

Never knocked out either, not even in his last fight against Henry Armstrong.

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Sam Langford
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Barney Ross

14. Tony Canzoneri

17. Jimmy McLarnin

--

Thoughts?
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Last time I did a top 10, I think I had him 10th as well. Which proves his greatness as I am highly anti-semitic.

Manassa · Nov 26, 2009

fleaman said: ↑

valid explanation, but then I expected nothing les from you :good

However, I'm still not convinced. This is mainly down to the footage of Fitz-Corbett (not great, admittedly, and Fitz was old) really NOT impressing me.

But then, opinions are what these lists are all about :good

I think there is a certain contingency (on this forum) who make Fitz to be superhuman. Not suggesting you are Manassa, the post of yours I'm quoting shows that you're objective....hmmm hard to explain, even with all the explanations I've read bigging up Fitzs competition and his high KO percentage.....dya know what I mean?

I go on resume plus skillset (I.e despite his half-decent resume I'm not big on Ottke, for a rather obvious an time-saving example) but despite Fitz's impressive stats (especially considering the weight he often gave up) I don't feel he should be given allowances due to the time he fought in (referring to your point about giving him kudos for being first man to win three titles) whilst tougher I don't feel the fighters then were as good as say, from 25-50. The likes of Charles, Johnson, Moore etc etc were for me the pinnacle of the sweet science, and I feel Corbett would lose to all of them. Notsure how Fitz would fate, though I'm sure someoe will come on to tell me je could beat Foreman, Kid Dynamite and Ali on the same night

Am I being unfair?
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Well you can only be as good as your rule set will allow. Fighters back in the early 1900s were still used to small or no gloves and therefore slipping and ducking to the extent modern boxers do wasn't an option. Neither was combination punching or high work rates. It all meant broken bones or tiring late in the fight.

Nevertheless, I do think, even relatively, the sport turned more professional and sophisticated and that fighters did improve. Even if the 1901 rules remained the same, the fighters of the '40s would be, on average, a bit better because there'd be more of them training like actual athletes.

Still, I like to rate 'for the era.' Galileo was great, despite his theories being known to be mostly inaccurate today. Fitzsimmons was great because he was a pioneer of the gloved era, and in his own time, was considered to be pound-for-pound the best, save perhaps Joe Gans.

Of course, I'd pick Ezzard Charles to slash him up.

Manassa · Nov 26, 2009

sweet_scientist said: ↑

Kid Kaplan and Young Corbett III would definitely be in a top 200. They wouldn't make a top 100 for me, but I've never even tried to systematise a list past about a top 120, so I can't really place fighters that rank outside that range with any solid justification.

Benny Bass and Pedro Montanez would be in the ballpark of a top 200 too, though i can't say they'd definitely make it.
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Interesting. They all make my top hundred. Infact, at least a couple of them make the top seventy.

I mean, you won't catch me rating Carlos Palomino or Jose Luis Ramirez over these four.

Manassa · Nov 26, 2009

sweet_scientist said: ↑

Anyone here have Kid Gavilan in their top 20? He's number 15 for me, and seriously, I wouldn't mind moving him up a bit either.
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Too high for me. If I were to rate Gavilan at 15, I'd have to rate Jose Napoles at about #11, and Ike Williams at #14 or #16.

GPater11093 · Nov 26, 2009

im very impressed with Ross obviously his resume and achievements

but on film he really is great isnt he?

very adaptable boxer-puncher kind of mould but more boxer. Had all the skills but was tough and gritty and determined with it. Had great straight punches and movement aswell.

Flea Man · Nov 26, 2009

As per era???

Damn, Manassa, you've unlocked the solution to my problems on ranking. How did I not think of that before :good

I have Gavilan at about 30, behind Napoles (29) and Williams (25)

That's based on recollections of the last list I attempted about three or four months ago. I might be ready to put my 'brackets' to the test and see which fighters would eek out others to make certain spots.

Painful stuff, wish me luck

Minotauro · Nov 26, 2009

Manassa said: ↑

Hang on, just remembered Gans is #14, not 11.

Because Fitzsimmons has that spot.

11. Bob Fitzsimmons
12. Muhammad Ali
13. Joe Louis
14. Joe Gans
15. Mickey Walker
16. Tony Canzoneri
17. Jimmy McLarnin
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Sandy Saddler
20. George Dixon

Order changes a bit (just earlier I said Canzoneri and McLarnin were 14 and 17 and that Gans was 11 - got mixed up) but not on purpose. This is more or less set.
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Where about do you rate The Barbados Demon Joe Walcott?

frankenfrank · Nov 26, 2009

clearly not a top10 p4p.
did anyone notice he is somewhat like reggie johnson in the sense that his losses and wins (i mean the relevant ones) were close decisions and he was never stopped.
well , reggie johnsons opposition is more impressing :
Roy Jones
James Toney
Antonio Tarver
Steve Collins
Jorge Fernando Castro X2
John David Jackson
Julio Cesar Gonzalez
Lamar Parks
Sanderline Williams
Ralph Ward

Borderline :
Ismael Negron
Adam George

the other reason is simply because :
Sam Langford
Manny Pacquiao
David Tua
James Toney
Mike Tyson
Rocky Marciano
Dwight Braxton
Roberto Duran
Ray Leonard

are 10 fighters and then come :
Young Peter Jackson (Baltimore Demon)
Mysterious Billy Smith
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Ray Robinson
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Marvin Hagler
Harry Greb

Oscar Delahoya
Kotsya Tszyu
Julio Cesar Chavez
Hector Camacho
Roy Jones
Joe Frazier
Mike McCallum
Oneil Bell
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney

Carlos Monzon
Rodrigo Valdez
Charley Burley
Henry Armstrong

Chad Dawson
Orlin Norris
Julian Jackson
Marlon Starling
Jose Luis Lopez
Aaron Davis
Reggie Johnson
Jorge Fernando Castro
Steve Collins
Archie Moore

Max Schmelling
Steve Hamas
William Lawrence Stribling
Ike Quartery
Oliver McCall
Tommy Loughran
Vinny Pazienza
Fritzie Zivic

more than 4/5 of those i mentiones deserve to be ranked higher than
Barney Ross , so how can he be top10 ?
not even top20 p4p.
and i even forgot some or even many.

one should think remind consider and remember before he declares a ranking for someone.

Manassa · Nov 26, 2009

fleaman said: ↑

As per era???

Damn, Manassa, you've unlocked the solution to my problems on ranking. How did I not think of that before :good

I have Gavilan at about 30, behind Napoles (29) and Williams (25)

That's based on recollections of the last list I attempted about three or four months ago. I might be ready to put my 'brackets' to the test and see which fighters would eek out others to make certain spots.

Painful stuff, wish me luck
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Fancy helping me do a top 100?

Manassa · Nov 26, 2009

Minotauro said: ↑

Where about do you rate The Barbados Demon Joe Walcott?
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#22 :good

teeto · Nov 26, 2009

We getting the top 100 soon Manassa? Can't wait.

Manassa · Nov 26, 2009

teeto said: ↑

We getting the top 100 soon Manassa? Can't wait.
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Might take another week or so - it's hard to do a deliberate list, especially after #30. I've seen some lists before and they just look randomised. I'm making sure to include every great fighter.

essexboy · Nov 26, 2009

Does anyone else think its time to track down and destroy Frankenfrank? Also how do you guys rate Lou Ambers?

Sweet Pea · Nov 26, 2009

essexboy said: ↑

Does anyone else think its time to track down and destroy Frankenfrank? Also how do you guys rate Lou Ambers?
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1. Yes.

2. Not sure where, but he's extremely underrated. One of the best resumes of any fighter, period.

teeto · Nov 26, 2009

Manassa said: ↑

Might take another week or so - it's hard to do a deliberate list, especially after #30. I've seen some lists before and they just look randomised. I'm making sure to include every great fighter.
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I'd rather you take your time cos it seems you'll really unleash a beauty when you get to the finished product.

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