It was punches from Ali and Young that knocked Foreman down. He didn't just fall over. Stamina certainly played major roles in Foreman getting dropped by these men, but I've never understood see how this should help Foreman in these debates. "He was never hurt by Ali or Young" well then why was he knocked out by Ali and down by Young? They weren't shots that simply knocked him off balance like in Holyfield-Tyson 1, he was hit with flush shots and went down hard (especially against Ali) Anyway, if the guys stamina is as bad as you're making it out to be, then it doesn't bode well for him against the best late round puncher since Rocky Marciano. If Ali knocked him out without even "hurting him" than imagine what would of happened if he was against a puncher
Exactly. Regardless of whether he was tired or not, he was put down by them, and like you say, him getting tired isn't exactly something that helps his case, unless he gets to do 10 minute Foreman Grill commercials between each round.
I've seen the fight about 100 times. Also, Foreman fought stupidly and was already getting way too into his power. In fact, Foreman from 72-73 was better in comparison to the 74-77 fight versions than Tyson from 88 to 89-90, but you don't hear about that only you do with Tyson. Watch Foreman from 72-73 where he sets things up with the jab and throws more combinations and even blocks more from the one that just tries wrecking over Norton and Ali and the mentally broken one that just swung at everyone thinking his power was enough. Foreman and Tua have different power. Tua is possibly the better puncher, but definitely doesn't have more power. Frazier said getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by "Three giants." Tua, on the other hand landed the left hook on Lewis frequently but didn't even wobble him. Lewis as we all know has a shakish chin. It took Tua many rounds against any decent competition. And most of the time he stepped up in class he lost anyway. Foreman on the other hand has a higher slugging percentage, has a better KO streak in his comeback and had Holyfield claiming he got hit with the hardest punch ever by Foreman. Not Tyson, not Lewis, not anyone else. What 1 punch KO does Tua have that is so much more impressive? Isn't that a testament of him as a puncher and not neccessarily his power. Tua may be crisper, but doesn't have the same concussive power.
Foreman shoved steroid pumped Tommy Morrison around like a rag doll, and Tua lacks Morrison's height and reach. Tommy also clobbered George a number of times flush with that vaunted hook to no avail. Frazier also nailed Foreman a few times in their rematch with his hook, and George didn't even step back. I can't see Tua winning in retreat, and Foreman would be moving him backwards. (Having said that, I didn't expect that Morrison could box and move against George the way he did.)
Against Young, he might as well have just fallen over. The punches had him go over the edge. Foreman was exhausted in the Young fight. Going 12 rounds, not getting acclimated to the climate and Foreman has a history of drying up before fights. He actually beat the count against Ali. He doesn't look badly hurt or stunned after he gets up. Now, yes, Ali rocked him, but when your exhausted and gassed out anything can hurt you. It's not a sign of a weak chin or lack of durability, otherwise Foreman wouldn't have beat the count. Against Young, he was down for literally 3/4 of a second. Was Tyson on the ground longer against Holyfield than Foreman was against Young? Yes... So you think Tua rope a dopes or try boxes Foreman? Tua can whether the storm and possibly win, but against a peaked and primed Foreman I don't think so. And no, Foreman post 74 is a mentally weak Foreman. Ignoring this, is essentially ignoring the truth. And a better late-round puncher than Frazier? Interestingly enough, maybe 90's Foreman has a better chance.
Tua is so limited and not quite fast enough on his fast to even get at Foreman. If Foreman can't blitz him out, I reckon he can use his height and length to outbox him. After all, a 260 pound Hasim Rahman did.
Hasim Rahman outboxed a Tua who was past his best. And anyway, when did Foreman at his best ever go in there with the gameplan of using his height and reach to outbox opponents and was successful with it? He switched to a more technical approach after the Ali fight against Lyle, and paid for it dearly by nearly getting knocked out by someone whos power is not even near that of Tua. Watching George bounce around which he did at times makes me laugh. If George tries to stick and move, he's going to get knocked out. Tua is much more dangerous than Lyle, especially in that he had stamina, top end durability and ATG late round power. Lyle didn't have any of those.
How do you see a young Foreman-Tua fight going? I'm also thinking that Foreman beats Tua by TKO. It's really one of the few fights that I feel that Tua may be in serious trouble of losing via KO, due to several reasons which I'll likely post later. I'd be interested in seeing what you have to say about this before I make a pick either way :good.
Tua was always troubled by a consistent jab, and comeback George had a consistent jab. At the same time though, I don't think he'd be able to land his heavy artillery enough on Tuaman to be able to force the stoppage, and his workrate wasn't his strong point. Prime Tuaman would likely outwork him to take the decision. Foreman's at his best against short, come forward fighters who he can push back in order to unleash his bombs without fear of retalliation. Tua is this to a T. Tua though has a tremendous chin and is second to none in terms of one shot power, which with Foreman's defense could be a serious problem. Another big (the biggest) problem with picking Foreman is the fact that his stamina HAS let him down in the past resulting in him getting dropped/stopped by far inferior punchers to Tua. If Tua can survive the early rounds, he has this one in the bag due to his clutch/late round power. However, I don't envision him being able to survive the early rounds. You simply can't take Foreman's power, Chuvalo's durability is every bit as good as Tua's and HE couldn't take the punishment. If you're giving up height to Foreman and you're a brawler, you're in big trouble. I see Tua getting pushed back, getting unloaded on, he goes in to try to throw a hook, gets pushed back again and it keeps happening over and over until his body can't take it any more. Another key part is that Tua's body is no where near as durable as his chin (Byrd seriously hurt him to the body), and Foreman would be pounding The Tuaman's body from the get go. With a strict ref that wouldn't allow Foreman's shoving I pick Tua though.
If Foreman proved anything in his Ali bout it is that he took a great punch. Ali landed more flat footed, full force right hands in that bout than I have ever seen against a top quality fighter and Foreman took them time and again. It was actually a terrific display of a concrete chin. When he went down in round 8 it was from exhaustion. He was gone. No knock on Ali who fought the fight needed to win but it was fatigue as much as anything else. The same with Young who was a poor puncher. Tua would be a dangerous match up for Foreman because he was such a fast starter, unlike Frazier who needed time to get warmed up. Foreman Tua would have been explosive.
very interesting comments actually, now the issue of foreman shoving.....why the hell did so many refs let him do it??? and i have doubts young 220 pound foreman could push a 5'9 240 pound thick legged and stocky tua around. also how about this foreman tries to shove tua back and as he eats a monster left hook, i doubt he would like it..... people brought chavalo to the converison, but he is not tua, does not have tua's punch, is not as strong physically,