Sonny Liston Vs Mike Tyson

I second that.

I also want to emphasize that Tyson is not only the bigger man in this match up but he also carries the better arsenal, better power and better durability.

 

I would pick Liston to win for two verry specific reasons.

1. Ring generalship.

2. Ability to control distance and work at every range.

Basicaly I think that Liston has a generalised stylistic advantage going into the fight but that his ability to identify and work with the holes in Tysons package will be the deciding factor as it was for Hollyfield (in a different way).

With contemporary fights, this is the kind of prediction that makes you look like agenius when you get it right, but somtimes explodes in your face.

 

Speed is a very important part of boxing and one of the major reasons Douglas beat Tyson. That difference between Liston and Douglas is key here. Liston has a longer reach than most people Tyson faced, but Tyson himself is considerably larger than almost everyone Liston faced. The fact that he carries 220 pounds with his height says a lot.
And anyway, like I said before, height is as as or more important than reach and Liston doesn't tower over Tyson at 6'1.

Tyson was shell of his former self when he faced Lewis. We may as well say Liston has no chance against Tyson because Leotis Martin took him out, imagine what someone with Tyson's firepower would do. Listons jab is considerably slower than Buster's (who in my opinion had perhaps the best jab of all time) and this is important to note.
I know that Liston's timing was superb, but the fact is that the jabbers that bothered Tyson most were faster than Liston

Ok but this doesn't counter my point, which was dealing with power. Not durability. Even so, it took a massive accumulation of shots from both Holy and Douglas to get Tyson down. Tyson was never seriously hurt by a single shot, and never dropped by a puncher that hit as weak as Marty Marshall.

You can't honestly say that the version of Tyson that fought Douglas is the best version of Tyson there was. You can fault him for his lack of focus and losing to a fighter like Buster in the years he should of been in his prime, but it should be fairly obvious and I'm sure it is obvious to you that the Tyson that fought Douglas is certainly a step below the Tyson that fought Biggs/Holmes/Tubbs/Spinks.

I do see your points though, dealing with similarities between Liston and Douglas. They need to be taken into account and Liston would need to employ a gameplan similar to the one that Douglas used. Me picking Tyson over Liston isn't a fight in which I feel comfortable with picking the winner.

It shows that Liston isn't the heavier man in there, despite being several inches taller. He's not going to dwarf Tyson which I feel that many here are under the mistaken impression that he would.

 

This is what makes me nervous in picking Tyson here.

Liston's ability to adapt mid fight is really second to none in the division. The first Williams fight is my favorite of his, in the first round he takes a bit of a beating but he changes his plan and then makes short work of Big Cat. Really impressive from a guy most fans lump in with George Foreman in the brains department which is nonsense.

Tyson was one dimensional but he had a lot of different ways to attack you in that one dimension (mid range) If that makes any sense

 

I think that we both have he measure of Liston and Tyson.

 

The Williams fight is key here though. Liston himself basically said that he beat Williams because he could take punishment better than the Big Cat, saying that Williams hit as hard as he did, but couldn't take it like he could.

Here he's against someone who's not only a superior puncher to Williams, but can take punishment like he can.

Not in terms of mobility.

What Bruno did was tie Tyson up and then wail on the back of his head (Which he was penalized for). That doesn't really tell me that Tyson is going to be dominated on the inside, just that Bruno was resorting to illegal tactics out of sheer desperation and terror.
And Bruno, for all his limitations, was a monster physically. Few if any fighters in history are physically stronger than him, especially before he got tired. Basically if he wants to tie you up early in a fight, he's going to do it.

Everyone outreached Tyson and was taller than him. It's not like this is the first time he ever met someone who was taller and with a longer reach, EVERYONE was taller and outreached Tyson!

Did you mean Liston's the superior jabber in terms of SPEED when compared to Douglas? I can't say I agree in the least if that's what you meant.

Liston according to Marshall and others, was dropped in their rematch. I just checked and Boxrec doesn't list it, but Marshall said that he knocked him down shortly before he himself was stopped, and that it was the biggest mistake he made because it pissed Liston off. Liston always denied it, it's hard to get a concrete answer for this, along with most of the things that went on in his life really. I know you're knowledgable about Liston, what have you heard or read about this?

I agree with a lot of this, but I don't think Tyson is as easily timed as you do. Especially when you're getting serious leather thrown at you, which Liston would be. Tyson was good at evading jabs, not quite as good at evading uppercuts.

 

There's a big difference between controlling the distance against a guy like Cleveland Williams and the tornado that was a peak Mike Tyson.

How do you suppose Tyson should of dealt with this? It's impossible to stop someone from hitting you behind the head in a clinch.

I really don't see Liston's few inches in height and his reach being an "enormous advantage." This isn't going to be fought on the outside, Sonny's lack of mobility ensures this.

Who did Liston fight with Tyson's combination of speed and power? Cleveland Williams is the only guy who can even be mentioned here, and he gave a peak Liston his best fight. Tyson is miles better than Williams. The point I'm trying to make is that in H2H matchups at HW, it's basically a given they they haven't faced anything like what they would be in these matches.

Okay, but that's debatable and an opinion. Liston is obviously leagues better in terms of standing, and h2h, but Buster's jab was really, really good. I'd say it's on par with about anyone in history, it combined serious power with loads of speed.

 

Def wouldn't last longer than two rounds. Liston wouldn't try to outbox Tyson. Both too aggressive. Would be a matchup of the chins, combos and speed. I'd say Tyson would win this.

 

You seemed to exaggerate on how small Big Cat and Liston were Liston was only about 4 Lbs less than Tyson And was 2" taller also Big Cat was not that small he would not be one of TYsons smaller foes he stood 6'4 and weighed 215 against Liston. He would hardly be one of Tysons smaller foes remember these guys would also be at least 10 to 15Lbs more of solid weight in these days of better nutrition and better training.
Also the Comparisons with the other guys,wasn"t to telling since Listons Jab was stronger than any of the guys you mentioned,although Holmes jab was quicker. Liston could actually move you back with his Jab. The comparisons in power seemed accurate though as Tyson was a sharper puncher than Liston, but Liston was maybe the stronger puncher.
The difference with Listons jab vs the guys you mentioned is

 

Williams was 6'3, not 6'4. I'm sure that Williams and Liston would of been heavier had they had the benefits of modern training, but they didn't. 215 is small nowadays.
My point anyway with the weight was this, Liston tends to get painted as this giant of a fighter and I think people have the idea that he's so much bigger than Tyson, where in reality he is smaller than Tyson. By a small amount, yes but he certainly isn't dwarfing someone who outweighs him.