Heavyweight Tourney:Rd 3:Wladimir Klitschko .Vs. John L. Sullivan

Klitschko KO2 Sullivan

Klitschko with superior footwork, jab and combos. Sullivan's old-old school way of boxing would be his death. Especially against a fighter like Klitscko who combines height, power and technique.

 

Wlad may well have the best footwork of all superheavyweights we've ever seen. His balance is top notch (Steward noticed this before he trained him) and no opponent ever consistently managed to get in punching range.

Sullivan's footwork was based on an entirely different SPORT. It was grappling + bareknuckle/smallgloved boxing. Different thing. I'm sure the Judo champ has great footwork for his throws, but put him in a boxing ring and see how great it looks.


Janitor, you still seem (knowingly?) ignorant towards the fact that boxing was COMPLETELY different back then. Hands low, lesser combination punching, no glove blocking, throwing allowed, ends rounds, longer rounds. All of these things have a huge impact on what works and what doesn't, and if you think that Sullivan fights like Patterson then you are making a big mistake.

Wlad by TKO in what isn't a fair fight because one fights under his own rules while the other doesn't.

 

Vlad used to have the worst footwork i have ever seen, early in his career, but from memory, it has improved quite a bit recently. I will need to relook at his recent fights again, but there is no way his balance and footwork is better than say Lennox Lewis'. I thought Sanders, Brewster, and Peters landed consistently, without even thinking about it. Vlad is a good fighter and improving with every fight, but he is not this unbeatable monster that people assume. If you look at his reign, he has beaten a few good fighters, with Chris Byrd definitely being the best win, although history has shown that he had aged by the time that Vlad beat him. The first win hardly counts since the Vlad that beat him was not recognisable to the one that became a good fighter.

But it is a 15 round fight. why wouldnt the fighters be using small gloves and and grappling? Surely you dont want to give Wlad all the advantages. Wlad is largely an unknown against John Ls style of fighting. I dont think it looks that promising for him. His size might help him a bit in the clinches and grapples, but his poor chin is going to be a big problem if John L hits him in the break isnt it? Out of a time machine Wlad isnt really trained to deal with a lot of John Ls offence. As you said, it is an entirely different sport and Wlad is only skilled in half the game.

Hands low (but not as low as say, a Vitali Klitchsko) and i think Sullivan had high hands, didnt he?
Lesser combination punching. I dont think this is correct. It is only lesser in the extent that if you throw combinations, the fight would become a grapple more often (like a Ruiz fight, where combinations are not that common). Wlad will not be able to fire too many combinations if he is stuck in a long grapple with John L (not that i necessarilly think this will happen). No Glove blocking - Limited, but this is offset by an increase in parrying. How is Wlad going to defend without his glove blocking? It certainly places him at a massive disadvantage with the wrong gloves.

This statement makes no sense. If Wlad fights under his own rules and Sullivan under his, then by definition, Wlad is the one under the unfair disadvantage, because he wont have seen or be skilled at half the techniques. It would be like a boxer fighting a kick boxer. The kick boxer rules allow everything a boxer does and then some. The boxer would obviously be at a disadvantage and the same would be if these two fight. Many of Sullivans tactics are not allowed today. All of Wlads were allowed in Sullivans day. If we have a fight then obviously Sullivan must be allowed to fight to his own rules (save for LPR Kd round end rule and bareknuckles which wasnt really part of Sullivans rules anyway).

 

Watch it again. Sanders had that unorthodox, fast and powerful left that he landed and that was basically it. Brewster barely landed a shot on Wlad; he tired himself out. Peter landing consistently? Given that you make this huge mistake in judgment, i'm not sure how serious i should take your opinion on this.

How good is Sullivan's chin? How important is one's chin if you have a full minute to recover and can go whenever you want? How many 200+lbs talented heavies did he beat? How many 200+lbs men did he beat at all? Pugs from saloons? How many talented men did he fight at all? Talent pool in his day was tiny, as were means of transport and communication (no ratings, etc). Don't think he's as proven as Wlad when you make a cross-era comparison.

No, he didn't. You're seeing things that are contrary to every single bit of photographed evidence, which is not open to opinions of any time.

How is it relevant how Wlad is going to defend without his glove blocking? The rules of this tournament is 15 rounds, modern (post 40's) rules. Not 1800's rules.

You misread my statement. I said:
Wlad vs Sullivan here is unfair because Wlad fights under his own rules and Sullivan doesn't.

 

I will rewatch when i get time., that comment was made basically by the fact that these guys all knocked Vlad down and therefore, they all must have got threw with at least one shot! By the way, if these guys can all knock down Wlad, without landing consistently, wouldnt you think that Sullivan could do. If Wlad tires when he lands consistently against Brewster, is it not likely that he is in trouble if Sullivan is as tough as his fights indicate. And is an unorthodox and Fast and powerful left is causing problems, well wouldnt that indicate taht he might be troubled by Sullivan whose punches you tend to suggest will be fast powerful and unorhodox!

Like today, most seem to think it wasn t the best talent pool. But, he didnt duck the clear standout number 1 challenger for his entire reign (Vitali), and he didnt have sanctioning bodies (largely) ruling out top contenders either. In sullivans time, it was travel that kept many top contenders appart (or lack of media reporting) but in Wlads, it is just the attitudes and "good management". To be honest, if Wlad was to travel around like Sullivan did (assuming he was successful) I think it would improve his legacy massively. Somewhere along the line, he would have fought guys like Ruiz, Valuev, Tua etc as well as the current guys he has already fought.

what photos are there where his left hand is held lower than Vitali's? Even those ones of the bareknuckle fight have the hands higher than Vitali has them, and that looks to me to be taken clearly after exhaustion has set in and hands naturally tend to drop.

Round 3 action. Wladimir Klitschko victorious over Gerry Cooney & Jefferies will be facing his strongest compeition in John L. Sullivan. Who has advanced thus far by defeating, Morrison & Jack Sharkey. Tough match up.

Please give reasoning for prediction. Please give predicted result.

Round 3. 15 Rounds.

15 Rounds is agreed, Queensbury rules is agreed.

But where is it agreed that rules are modern? I suppose you want neutral corners also.

You cant ban the same things that modern referees ban, just because your favourite hasnt been subjected to them. A fighter needs to apply his full arsenal. It would be like pitting Muhammed Ali against the champion 100 years from now under 15 round queensbury rules when future referees had decided that head shots were too brutal and needed to be banned.

Sullivan can use whatever gloves Queensbury rules allow and whatever tactics Queensbury rules allow.

But the problem is that you are assuming that the rules of this fight are solely Wlads and that is back to front. Put Simply Wlad throws a punch and clinches. Sullivan repeatedly strikes in the clinch. This is legal. Sullivan doesnt break the clinch and allow Wlad to reestablish distance, because he doesnt have to and the referee is not entitled to force him to. If the rules are silence, then it must be assumed that both fighters are allowed to use the tactics they used in their time. Wlad is at a big disadvantage because he has never seen some of Sullivans tactics as TV stations or other factors outlawed those tactics. It doesnt mean that the modern fighter automatically loses, but he has a massive hurdle to overcome.

 

Steward employs a bunch of guys to record Sullivan's sparring on iphones. Sullivan's trainers, being 19th century guys, don't understand the problem. Steward finds a weakness, teaches Klitschko to exploit it, and Wlad beats Sullivan by KO.

 

Also...

1) Like it or not, Sullivan's talent pool WAS smaller than Wlad's, and by a significant margin

2) Sullivan was primarily a gloved heavyweight, so his style isn't quite as far from Wlad's as some argue.

3) That being said, the style was still different, albeit unorthodox. Wlad would have some trouble with him.

4) I doubt he was leaping several feet in the air like a ballet dancer. More like a short, fencing-style hop.

5) I do not think that Sullivan fought like Patterson. Rather, he was just more hunched over than traditional LPR fighters.

6) If we're using modern gloves, bear in mind that Sullivan's chin was (relatively) tested against tiny, 4-6 oz. gloves. Perhaps Mitchell could score knockdowns against modern cruiserweights with those gloves (Mormeck or Pavlik moreso than Haye, size-wise...)

7) Wlad wins unless Sullivan gets in a lucky punch.

8 ) Unfortunately, pre-Steward Wlad (if we're not talking prime-for-prime) sometimes had trouble against opponents he hadn't prepped for. Sullivan fits the bill here.

9) Wlad still probably wins.

10) Golota's crazy

 

How have you measured that ?

 

Sullivan refused to fight his most dangerous and outstanding challenger,Peter Jackson,not for his entire reign but for a part of it.

 

He also wanted no part of Slavin, who was nearly as good as Jackson was. When Sullivan refused to meet Slavin, Richard K. Fox who was in charge of the Police gazette awarded the belt to Slavin. IMO, Slavin would have been the best win for Sullivan if they meet and John L won.

Sullivan resume lacks a Jackson, Slavin, Goddard, and Dooley on it, and three of those guys were not bound by any color line.

 

Sullivan's supporters had a special belt commissioned ,encrusted with diamonds.
A grateful John L said , " this belt makes Fox's look like a dog collar".

The feud between Sullivan and Fox supposedly started in a restaurant when Fox ,spotting Sullivan ,sent some one over to invite him to his table,the prickly Sullivan took it as a summons, and said "if he wants to talk to me ,he can come over here to my table",

I think Slavin would have been beaten by even a slighly past it Sullivan ,he did not have the science of Jackson.
I beleive Sullivan's best win was his comeback from physical collapse to beat Jake Kilrain,a tribute to his indominability and to William Muldoon's training.