New Book - In the Ring With James J. Jeffries

I'm about 5 rounds into Jeffries-Corbett I. The chapter on the fight notes that Corbett seemed unhappy about the absence of film cameras. I take that to mean that Jeffries, who didn't like heat, had held out for the film not being filmed. Corbett, I presume, would have probably prefered filming, both to discomfit Jeffries by the heat of the lighting, as well as for the revenue.

I haven't read enough of the Jeffries-Corbett II fight to say whether that one was filmed.

 

I think the CBz record is courtesy of Tracy Callis who is a top researcher. I suspect he was working of the NY Times report which I am begining to believe was a hatchet job on Jack Johnson. I'll try and get a better translation of the fight-that would help!
Also I have no current info on the scoring except that the two named judges gave it as a "null" fight.

 

Lets face it.
If,on his death bed ,Jim Johnson ,made a sworn , signed statement ,that he was lucky to secure a draw with an injured , 35 year old , Jack Johnson over 10 scheduled rounds ,you would find something wrong with it.

 

I don't think we can fault Jeffries for fighting smaller men, he happened to be the first of what we would call the modern heavyweights in size, the stature of his challengers was not of his choosing.
But the fact remains Fitz was only 167 lbs when he defended against Jeffries ,and Sharkey was only 5 ' 8''.
It seems that it is okay for some to criticize Johnson for meeting smaller men ,but not Jeffries.
Do you think 24 year old Jeffries was handicapped more with his injured arm ,than 35 year old Johnson was with his broken one?

 

There is a lot of truth in this post. During the Fitzsimmons match, when they told Jeffries Fitz was 167, Jeffries simply laughed and said it he's 167, then put me down for 144.

I get the feeling many old timers fudged their weight a bit south of where they were. Perhaps this was to let the fight fans know they were in shape.

 

I don't know that I would call Sullivan a big heavyweight ,he was 5 '10 1/2'',and his best weight was probably under 200lbs.
It was heavyweight champions I was referring to really ,I should have made that clear.

As to Fitz ,Bob Davis stated that Fitz was weighed ,on a steelyard, the morning of his fight with Corbett ,and that he was present ,Davis said Fitz scaled 156 1/2lbs, he even stated what Fitz had for breakfast,,[half a chicken,two slices of toast and a compote of stewed fruit],cooked by his wife, washed down with a cup of coffee.Fitz ,according to Davis said "I'm still a middleweight ,now lets see wot appens".
If Davis is accurate,and he was with Fitz throughout his training for the Corbett fight ,and was in the corner during it,he weighed 156 1/2lbs ,so he must have gained 44lbs to come in at the 200lbs you say he later, carried.
That seems a lot to me , especially in the days when steroids were unknown.

 

I agree that there is too much discrepancy between the weights reported for fighters of this period to accept all the reports.

I have seen Sullivan listed as everything from 175lbs to 230lbs in shape. Obviously something is wrong somwhere. Reading between the lines I think that Sillivan came in under 195lbs for finish fights in his younger days but was over 200 for Queensbury bouts. He might have been closer in size to Mike Tyson than to Rocky Marciano.

The circumstances under which Fitzsimmons made weight for the Nonpareil Jack Dempsey fight are higly suspicios and it is telling that his first act as middlewight champion was to raise the limit to 160lbs. When Fitzsimmons fought Gus Ruhlin his weight was listed at 155lbs but one paper suggested that he was probably 170lbs.

Looking at pictures of Fitzsimmons next to Jeffries you would think that he was bigger than claimed. In fact a lot of these boxrec mismatches don't look like such mismatches when you look at pictures of the fighters together. Your inevitable book on Jack Johnson might prove informative.

 

Just started the chapter after Jeffries-Corbett I. I like Jeffries comeback to Corbett's calling the KO an accident; i.e. he was confident he could bring about the same 'accident' if they fought again.

It seems everyone was unanimous that Corbett was in excellent condition, and performed better than he had in some time.

Mr. Pollack does a good job of bringing together opinions of how a decision would have gone, had the fight gone the limit. He says a slight majority opined for Corbett, but not to the point that it could be called a concensus. Indeed, there are cited opinions that a draw, or even a Jeffries victory, would have been just. Of course, this is assuming nothing dramatic would happen in the concluding rounds (as did happen). With Corbett's legs tiring and Corbett having to make more of a standing fight, of course the chances of his catching a big one were on the assent.

Tommy Ryan is now gone.

It's hard to generalize about whether Jeffries had a good defense or not. He got it in the face plenty, but he was very hard to hit in a 'vital spot'. In 20-25 round fights, he felt he'd win wars of attrition, so he was mostly concerned with not running into anything huge. Jeff's basic philosophy seemed to be that if he wasn't KO'd he'd waer his opponent out.
I think you have to look at the circumstances Jeffries performed in in assessing his defense. Today he and his trainers might have to adopt a different attitude.

 

Didn't know, till I read apollacks book, that Jeffries left arm was still hurting at the time of the first Corbett fight. He had the arm in a cast for quite some time after that fight.

Jeffries made an interesting observation about Jim Corbett's punching, that Corbett hit hard enough with the right to hurt him but that to do so he'd be no faster than the next guy. We do see that, with guys like McCoy or Mitchell, who were fair hitters but not Sullivan/Fitzsimmons/Jeffries level punchers, Jim would hit punishingly enough.
Jefferies observation makes me think Corbett would have likely lost a rematch with Fitzsimmons. I'm not saying it's a sure think; but I think if Corbett doesn't sit on his punches he's not going to get Fitz out, and Fitz is going to eventually stop him again; and if Corbett does punch hard enough to stop Fitzsimmons, Jim's going to be hit more often and harder. My two cents.

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Gus Ruhlin's KO15 of Tom Sharkey was an extended beatdown that was capped with a six-knockdown round. That might have taken as much out of Tom as did Tom's previous challenge of Jeffries.

Tom Sharkey said Bob Fitzsimmons punches didn't look hard coming in. Prof. Mike Donovan says the same in apollacks Fitzsimmons book. Maybe Fitzsimmons was analogous to the great pitcher Walter Johnson, who threw fast despite his deceptively easy motion? And maybe, just as Johnson's easy motion made it hard for batters to gear up for his speed, maybe Bob had a similar advantage? Just speculating.

Fitz got amonia in his eyes, between rouds, during his fight with Ruhlin ('The Akron Giant'). He seems to have stayed cool, and his sight cleared up before anyone but his corner realized what had happened.

Ruby Robert's (Fitz's) demolition of Ruhlin was extreme. Ruhlin was very lucky he didn't die. A short left jerk lifted Ruhlin off the canvas, he came down with his head sunk on his chest (the Fitz-Sharkey II KO was the same), his head hit hard and very akwardly, he was out cold and took some time to revive. Blood was coming out his ears, and he passed out on his stool again as Bob spoke to him. In his dressing room he couldn't endure a physician touching his body, and he went unconscious again for an hour. His right arm was black and blue and his chest covered with bruises. Two guys had to steady him to get back to his room, he couldn't speak coherently, and he lapsed in and out of consciousness, with unsteady breathing, for some hours before he stabilized.
Trainer Billy Madden said he stopped Ruhlin's defense against Jeffries before it turned into a Fitzsimmons-like beating.
All the newspapers Pollack cited support that Madden stopped Ruhlin's challenge of Jeffries. I once read somewhere that Gus grabbed the sponge from his corner and threw it in himself when they wouldn't stop the fight. This story seems to be total hoo-hah in the very teeth of the facts.


Corbett-McCoy strikes me as having been on the level, and a good win for Jim.


p. 455 (the author, Pollack): "Despite the fact that football statistically has more injuries and deaths per participant, we have colleges and television wholeheartedly promoting it, while at the same time shunning boxing. Federal and state legislators and athletic commmissions hinder and regulate boxing to death, while leaving football alone."

Tommy Ryan (no longer training Jeffries) predicts Fitzsimmons will fight Jeff differently if they ever rematch.

With Joe Kennedy Jeffries begins to change to a quicker, more upright style, with the crouch an option as occaision warrants.

In the Ruhlin fight, reporters note that Jeffries body blows are more telling than is immediately apparent to the casual observer. This might be something to remember in reference to the upcoming Fitzsimmons fight. Blows to the face are a lot more visible, and blood makes them look perhaps worse than they are. This might incline a viewer to think Jeffries simply got a shellacking from Bob, then off'ed him when Bob had punched himself to exhaustion; but I suspect we'll find that there was a more or less mutual beat-down. We'll see.

It's noted that Jeffries has aquired a knack of hitting his opponents as they move in to clinch.

 

Well, over lunch read right up to the start of Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II. Very excited -- this was definitely the megafight of it's day.

Post-Ruhlin, Jeffries stock as a boxer rose, while his stock as an attraction (except against Fitz) fell. Jeffries showing against Ruhlin made people realize what it meant for his left to be in good shape again, and they had a hard time getting excited over the thought of him rematching with either Sharkey or Corbett, this time with healthy limbs.

Sharkey-Maher fight a no contest; they'd been told before the fight they'd be arrested if they fought in earnest. Their rep's take an unfair hit.

The color line is being drawn for HW championship fights, not necessarily for non-title. The reporter says Jeffries was asked, but Delaney chimed in. I've glanced ahead a bit, in one place Jack Johnson states that he thought Delaney, more than Jeffries, was against mixed championship fights. Still, Jeffries went along with the program, even though he originally said he wouldn't draw the line. Too bad.

Ed Martin gets noticed as a potential some-day contender. He outboxes Frank Childs in a short fight, though it's apparent that Childs hits harder and takes it better than Martin.

Despite 'retiring' Fitzsimmons kept in good shape; then he put six months into training (for Fitz-Jeff II), seemed quick and spry as ever and rather bigger. Jeffries also seems well trained.

The winner of Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II is to meet Corbett. Delaney expects Jeffries will retire after rematching with Corbett.

Jeffries agrees to wraps, and Fitz can have a little 'sticking plaster'. Jeffries inspects Bob's wraps prior to donning gloves and voices no objections.

Referee Graney announces (for Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II) there will be no hugging or hittting in clinches.

 

Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II was generally percieved as being a really great fight while it lasted. Both guys were considered to have performed very well. Of course Jeffries bloody facial damage was more visible but, by round five, people realized Jim's body work was getting to Fitzsimmons. Jeffries didn't seemed to be criticized much for his facial damage. I think this was because people felt that, fighting the way he did -- taking surface damage to go deep on Fitzsimmons guts and wind -- it was inevitable he was going to win. (What if Jeffries had been more defensive? Maybe then Fitzsimmons could have lasted; maybe, then, Fitz might have won on points. What would you want to do, if you were Jeff: win the damn fight, or try to keep boxing fans a hundred years into the future from b**ching about how you got your face cut up atsch).

Munroe kd/wobbling/endangering Jeffries in an exh.: pretty clearly hog-wash.

 

It might be asked, though, how would Jeffries policy of taking blows to non-vital areas have worked against later champions? Could Jeffries have disdained Liston's jab? Could he have taken shotsof a Marciano or a Foreman to the face and upper jaw? Could he have taken the punches a Dempsey or a Louis or a Tyson would have strung together?

For sure, though, a fighter prepares for the guys of his own time. Whether that preparation would have prepared Jeffries to time-machine into another day is one question; how he might have developed, coming along in another day, is a different question.

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Fitz fought Jeffries different the second time. The first time he came in throwing one or two punches, and ran into counters; in the second fight he mixed punching and movement and defended himself more.