How hard do you find it to rank Pacquiao...

Manny Pacquiao is excellent. I have neither the authority or the inclination to claim otherwise. He isn't a great combination puncher though, and I can't understand how he wins all of these fights. Foreman won his because he probably hit harder than any other fighter in history, and Calzaghe is in the same boat for me. Nothing aesthetically pleasing about Calzaghe, who demonstrated sub-par punching technique every time out...and looked liek a spastic when he was disrespecting a once great fighter in Jones Jr.

Foreman is in the same boat, but he threw a lot of punches, and that coupled with his size and unreal power, it's not hard to understand why he was so revered. Frazier had no chance in hell, and neither did Norton, two fighters who'd easily hold belts at Heavyweight today. If you box Foreman, you have a good chance in beating him...Holyfield wouldn't do that though, he'd get hit and go crazy. Like he always did. He didn't even box a particularly disciplined fight in Bowe II. Riddick weighed more for that bout than he ever had before. You know why I've gone off the subject at hand. :good My bad.

 

You're speaking of Evander Holyfield as if he was Micky Ward. The bottom line is I credit Holyfield with a lot more intelligence than you do. I think if he got a taste of George's power early, or was merely aware of it beforehand, he wouldn't run in like a dope and get KO'd, because he isn't a ******, he would adjust. The guy was a cruiserweight who managed to have a long and successful career at heavyweight, and only got stopped once before he was shot, and that was by a prime version of a giant. He's not a moron.

Anyway, that's for another thread.

I agree with you whole-heartedly about Calzaghe, that's the main reason I'm not a fan. His statue-spine static stationary target head, his dreadful slapping punch technique, his over-reliance on handspeed and stamina, I just can't see what there is to enjoy about his skillset at all.

Pacquiao is in another dimension to that. The guy goes in against the best fighters in the world his weight, or the best heavier men that higher divisions can offer, and is always castigated for his poor defence, poor skills etc, yet no-one can seriously hurt him, no-one can properly drop him, and no-one can ever even come close to stopping him. His speed, power, heart and style are just thrilling to behold. His knockout of Hatton was calculated, timed, pinpoint accurate, and just ****ing gorgeous! Don't get me wrong, I can see why he's not everyone's cup of tea, but I think he is a fighter of god-like powers.

 

The last prime version of Bowe we ever saw was against a man named Jesse Ferguson. I agree, Holyfield can display intelligence, but Riddick Bowe looked terrible in 95. Certainly not prime for that event, and would never be again.

He's a great fighter, indeed. I just can't understand why smart, seasoned fighters can't capitalize on his sometimes lacking technique. Marquez was the last one too do it, but the Hatton knockout..I agree, was supernatural.

 

I don't think Holyfield was really prime either by then. I think the first Bowe fight took a lot out of him, and he gradually declined. Even the guy who beat Tyson and Moorer wasn't as good as the version of a few years earlier.

Anyway, yes Marquez did it to an extent, but he did not decisively win either fight. You could argue a point or two either way for both fights. And Pac knocks him senseless now IMO. Pacquiao just brings so much more to the table than conventional boxing skills learned in a gym. He is a special fighter.

 

Absolutely, but you mentioned Bowe being prime. I don't think he was, his prime lasted maybe 2-3 years at the most. Too bad, Bowe was extraordinarily good in '92....and a lot better than many give him credit for.

I disagree. I heard the same thing leading up to their rematch. I would favor Manny, for obvious reasons, but he wouldn't destroy him.

 

Marquez is probably going to hit the end of the line soon now, he's an old fighter.

i agree he'd get overwhelmed now, but i wouldn't say the Pac we have wtched since their last fight is going to have an easy time with the versions of Marquez he did fight.Assuming you could actually pit them both against each other of ocurse, which isn't the case without getting into the dodgy realms of P4P.

 

People are going to be saying Manny is getting old when Floyd boxes his socks off too. That's my general feeling. Juan is still good enough to rule at Lightweight, and win a belt at 140lbs.

 

You might be right.


Ithink Marquez is at the stage where he could fall away considerably over his next 2-5 fights.

 

Considering the trouble Diaz gave Marquez at lightweight, I wouldn't be too confident backing JMM to beat Timothy Bradley. Marquez's frame just won't hold that weight, I'd say 135 is his limit.

And once Pac outfights the crab-shell Mayweather, people en masse will begin to view boxing "skills" a little less reductively.

 

Bowe was not far enough past his prime for it to be a big deal.

I don't recall many neutrals thinking Pac would crush Marquez in their rematch. Marquez clearly had great ability at those weights. He clearly doesn't above 140, whereas Pac does. It would be surprising how easily Pac would dispose of the little doughnut that fought Mayweather.

 

Evander Holyield's heart problems was more of a big deal, but both looked like **** in that fight. Made for a great finish to their trilogy.

Marquez was just up against an extraordinarily talented fighter last time out, who was bigger, and Pacquiao will most likely meet the same fate. He'd be more competitive, but the result will remain the same. Marquez can beat Amir Khan, and that would give him a title at 140lbs. Scratch that. Marquez WOULD demolish Amir.

 

Agreed.

The weight had every bit as much to do with how Mayweather-Marquez transpired as Mayweather's mystical magical single-punch skills. A fight between the best sfw versions of both men would have been far more competitive, though I'd concede that Floyd would emerge with a hard-fought UD.

If Marquez lands flush on Khan, Khan goes. If Khan stays rigidly on his bike, jabs, runs, and avoids engaging, I wouldn't rule out a Khan decision. I just don't think Marquez will be himself at 140lbs, and if Khan can do anything it is do quick work on the move.

 

I think Mayweather would beat Marquez up badly at 130lbs, and the same thing would happen to Manny Pacquiao. I've never denied the ability of Floyd, but he has to go and prove it against the best fighters in his division. He hasn't done that for a long time, whereas the best fighters around him are showing him how it's done. Pacquiao, Hopkins, and Mosley, looking sensational against p4p rated opposition (Cotto, Pavlik) or the best in their division (Margarito).

Marquez landed flush on Floyd a few times, and he isn't as done as people think he is. There's no doubt in my mind that if the two were to fight right now, Marquez and Khan, it'd be a blowout.

 

The only thing he was clearly, was outclassed. If you dont think Pac is looking at that fight and thinking twice your nuts. Knocking out Hatton AFTER Mayweather and faster is meaningless, especially when you factor in Floyds fighting style. Realistically he fought closer to JW than welter nor do I think the age was a factor between the two fights

 

Even though Floyd did not beat him up badly at a weight where Marquez was little more than flabby cannon fodder? Floyd would win, but Marquez is a much better fighter than Corrales, Hernandez, or anyone else Floyd fought at 130. Castillo proved peak Mayweather was beatable. I doubt Marquez would have as much success as his style would not be as difficult for Mayweather as Castillo's was, but the best sfw Marquez was still too good a fighter there to be badly beaten up by Floyd.

I think the 130lbs Floyd comprehensively defeats the 130lbs Pacquiao, I'll give you that one. At 147lbs, it'll be a different story though.

Agreed. Floyd does have great ability, and has great performances in him, if he only has the courage to take on the best and the courage to actually put them to sword in a way he inexplicably shirked doing against Marquez.

The only times I remember Marquez landing flush were when Floyd backed to the ropes. Which bodes well for Pacquiao, since he will be pushing Floyd backwards. Unfortunately for Marquez, his punches carried no snap with all that extra weight and against a bigger opponent. We have already seen that Pac's do.

Who thinks he is done? He isn't, and I haven't heard many people say he is. He was simply no way capable of fighting over 140lbs against a welterweight.

At 140lbs, I'm not sure. You're probably right, but Khan is fast, has fast hands, and would run all night. A lww version of Marquez may not have the snap in his legs or in his hands to get to Khan.