How hard do you find it to rank Pacquiao...

Pac beat a way beater version of JMM, Floyd beat a man jumping up two divisions.

Always excuses with Floyd. If he wanted those fights he would had gotten them.

Pacman has the best win at WW.

Pacman is ahead on the ATG rankings.

 

1. only 35?, thats pretty old. Hopkins is the exception. Kostya also had been very inactive around that time and had a few injuries.

2. agree Kostya was not green and was in his prime.

 

He swarms and is physical with people who cannot stop him from doing so. If Juan Diaz fought Floyd Mayweather, he would not be able to swarm Floyd and bull him around physically, because he would find himself faced with stinging jabs to the head and body, as well as a moving target who was confusing and unpredictable in his movements. If Juan Diaz fought Shane Mosley or Manny Pacquiao, he would be smashed to bits within a round or two. He was able to swarm Marquez and be physical with him because Marquez at lightweight is not big enough and strong enough to simply shrug him off and beat him down straight away. This was one of the key reasons why I did not think the Mayweather-Marquez fight would be remotely competitive, and I was right.

Nah, the opposite is true. You react as though personally offended when anything that you think is negative is said about Floyd. It's pretty poor stuff considering this is the Classic Forum and not the General.

Erm, he would. That's kind of my point mate...

He is cautious by nature, but he will be especially cautious in this fight, cautious to the point that it affects his fight plan, and thus affects how the fight will go. If you take the fanboy specs off, you would see that my opinion is not designed to criticize Floyd, it is merely a genuine prediction on how Floyd will fight.

 

Im not personally offended, you just cant see the comments you are making are a bit off base. The way your are just brushing off Mayweathers win based on what you believe JMM wasnt compared to what Mayweather was, is unrealistic.
Sure Mayweather was bigger, but so was Pac in reality as he was always.
JMM was technically taken apart not physically overwhelmed, and theres a big difference using your logic.
As for the fight, Mayweather may suprise you, because offensive guys like Pac, leave many more openings for technical fighters like Floyd to take advantage of....

 

You're still wrong about Mayweather-Marquez. If Pac had outpointed Humberto Soto at 140 instead of fighting Hatton, or if Mosley had outpointed Juan Diaz at 147 instead of fighting Margarito, or if Paul Williams had outpointed Timothy Bradley at 154 instead of fighting Phillips, would you have been remotely impressed by any of these wins?? No? Well then apply the same standard to your hero. Even if a fighter is the top man in a division, a win over him means little if he has to jump 2 divisions to get there. And it is irrelevant what style Floyd fights in, Marquez does not have the frame to carry the weight, and it showed.

As for the fight, Mayweather won't surprise me, because offensive guys like Pac are not like offensive guys like Gatti, and Floyd won't be coming forward and attacking like he did vs Thunder, he will be in his defensive shell fully focused on not taking a clean shot.

 

Your still not getting it. Were comparing common opponents, in a relatively short amount of time. Were also comparing how each fight was carried out, meaning the weight factor which you think to be the only reason Floyd, (who hadnt fought in two years), dominated him, is not entirely it. Pac proved he had welterweight power all along, but he also proved hes not a technical master against JMM who wasnt even close to Mayweather. What if they fought at 135, do you really see the fight being competitive?
****, if you dont think Floyd isnt going to attack to establish his jab your nuts. Thats going to be the biggest factor in this fight.

 

You're not getting it. We are not comparing opponents, we are contrasting opponents, because the Marquez that fought Pacquiao was a completely different animal from the Marquez who fought Mayweather. That I am even having to explain this on the Classic Forum is pretty shocking to be honest. Pacquiao fought him at the weights he was best at, 126 and 130. Marquez was a natural feather, who also looked great at 130. By the time he got to 135, it was clear he was a smaller man competing in a weight division he was not quite big enough for, because he was bullied by a merely decent fighter in Diaz, before his superior power, accuracy and toughness prevailed. At his age, he was then asked to jump a further 2 weight divisions, having only had 2 fights at lightweight, and fight a naturally bigger man who has been performing effectively at 147 (and higher) for a number of years, a man who had advantages in height and reach as well. It is irrelevant what style Mayweather fights in, because Marquez came in thick around the middle, and did not look anywhere near as strong or explosive as he does when he isn't carrying extra weight. Adding excess weight to his frame adversely affected his abilities, that much was patently obvious.

I think I can make this a little easier for you to grasp here:

At 126 and 130, Marquez beats the vast majority of the best feathers and superfeathers from the last 10 years.
Above 140, Marquez beats none of the best welters from the last 10 years.

That is the difference.

Mayweather will utilize the jab, but not on the front foot, he will use it on the back foot as a deterrent, much like Pernell Whitaker did when he faced an aggressive opponent, though obviously less effectively as Floyd's jab is not in the same league as Pea's.

 

Your evaluation is incorrect. He didnt fight at 147 he fought at 142. Again Mayweather didnt beat him physically, ie weight didnt mean as much as you think, do you understand that? How can you come to your conclusion based on JMM's stoppage wins against fighters who had never previously been stopped. Again Diaz bully's all his opponents, thats his style, it's his friggen nickname for crying out loud.
In retrospect, Pac an already proven banger, probably an already welterweight banger, couldnt handle the best version of JMM on a technical level.
Weight and size are not the only predominant factor when comparing these fighters. Who cares what you think Mayweather would do to Diaz, it has no bearing on this discussion nor what Diaz has done to all his previous opponents. The fact is Diaz fights everyone the same, hasnt fought anyone differently and Marquez still was able to do something no other fighter did to him, get that? The only thing Marquez has proven is that he cant compete with Mayweather, who isnt a big welterweight himself, hes been competitive in every other fight hes been in, and dont tell me the weight rendered him completely helpless like he appeared in the Mayweather fight. Ill agree it was a factor, but not the only factor like you suggest.

 

If the fight in fact comes off next year March or May Pac will not change one bit, he is done developing, he reached his top level, no ifs or buts.

He still cannot fight on the backfoot.

He still does not know how to cut off the ring.

He still will not be moving his head.

He still will be wide open when he unloads.

He still has no answer for the right hand.

His activity rate will go way down because he will get countered, tied up and circled and he will respect and certainly feel Mayweathers underrated power accurate shots right on target.

As I said earlier, you noobs bought the hype and got sold on walk on water ****. Its called boxing not brawling and Pacman cant box for **** when fighters don't trade with him. It is going to look so easy that people will claim it was fixed............and I am not a Mayweather fan, not by a long shot but he got Mannys number, guaranteed.

 

I think it might be a little more competitive than you think, but I think some of the guys posting in this thread are so far off base and out of the realm of reality, but then again maybe thats why these very same guys fill up the arena when Joe Calzahge, Ricky Hatton and David Haye fought.:yep

 

Your posts have been continually erroneous throughout this thread, and every other thread I have seen you post in.

Any fight above 140 is a welterweight fight. I don't know if you noticed, but Manny Pacquiao recently won the WBO welterweight title weighing in at 144 with a 145 set limit.

On fightnight against Marquez, Floyd weighed 152lbs. It was a welterweight fight.

You just don't understand, and it's becoming rather tiresome continually trying to simplify and explain this. It is irrelevant whether Mayweather fights as physically as Roberto Duran or in the opposite style like Hector Camacho, his style does not matter when the man he is facing is greatly diminished by carrying too much unnatural excess weight that he was not equipped for. An overweight Marquez with diminished power, speed and explosiveness facing height and (a great) reach disadvantages is not a great opponent for any welterweight, so a win over him does not mean very much. All of the best welters of the past 10-15 years would have crushed him.

A prime Marquez at superfeather fighting at the peak of his capabilities and with a proven track record at the weight is a completely different fighter, and a win over that version is a completely different standard of win. That version of Marquez would have beaten the vast majority of the best feathers and superfeathers of the last 10-15 years.

I'm frankly astounded that this even needs explaining, this is something a 13 year old noob would understand on his first day on this website!

Yet again, I'm flabbergasted that someone on the Classic would even say something like this. Surely you understand that the result does not tell the full story?? Yes, Marquez eventually overcame Diaz and stopped him, but we know from his fights with Nate Campbell and Paulie Malignaggi that Juan Diaz was never a great fighter, and Diaz gave Marquez real trouble in the early rounds.

:-( This is becoming painful to read to be honest.

Carl Froch's nickname is 'The Cobra'. Does this mean he embodies the speed and venom of this animal? No, because it's a meaningless ****ing gimmick.

Diaz bullies opponents who cannot stop him from bullying them, he doesn't bully opponents because he is a fighter of superhuman strength that no lightweight can handle. If Diaz tried to bully Pacquiao or Mayweather, he would find himself getting smashed with punches and unable to pin them down, there would be no bullying whatsoever going on despite what Diaz's ****ing nickname is!!

Couldn't handle him? :huh How many of their two fights did Marquez win? None? Then I think he handled him fine. OK, Marquez perhaps won more rounds over the course, but I think if someone is breaching your defence, hitting you cleanly, and knocking you down, then they are not exactly on another planet in terms of technique. You can make the pedantic purist argument of saying that Marquez was outboxing Pac by using superior technique, but I think that's pretty flimsy considering they fought for 24 rounds and Marquez could not put daylight between them at any point. Pac won rounds where he did not drop Marquez, and he did by far the more effective work considering he was dropping Marquez and Marquez was not dropping him. This is more significant than Marquez's tidier boxing at times, and that's why Pac did not lose either fight.

Weight and size are the only predominant factors when you are discussing a size mismatch, which Mayweather-Marquez was.

I get it, but it's wrong and rather stupid. Diaz did not manage to bully Nate Campbell, he did not manage to bully Paulie Malignaggi, and he would not be able to bully anyone who was stronger than him, like Pacquiao, Mayweather, and literally hundreds of other lightweights who ever lived.

The only thing that fight proved was that it was pointless and meaningless. Marquez above 140 would not be able to compete with any decent welterweight. Guys like Berto and Clottey would have beaten him convincingly as well, and they are not even the top guys in the division. Mosley would have blown him away in a couple of rounds. Marquez above 140 was greatly diminished from what he was at 126 and 130.

He weighed 152lbs on the night. OK, he's not as big as Margarito or Williams, but he is still a full-sized welterweight who has been competing with success at welterweight against other welterweights for a number of years.

atsch Are you actually serious?? Of course he has been, because he's never came to the ring looking four months pregnant before! Marquez should never have been any higher than 135, he doesn't have the frame for it. Some fighters have the frame and natural ability to jump weights. Pacquiao has it, Mayweather has it, Oscar had it, Roy Jones had it, etc etc. Some men don't have it at all, eg Marvin Hagler, who at his height was never going to jump the 15lbs to lhw and fight a huge guy like Michael Spinks. And some men have it to a degree, but they have a clear glass ceiling in terms of how high they can go before it adversely affects them. So it is with Marquez, who is clearly not as effective at 135 as he was at 130, and certainly is not big enough to perform effectively above 135.

Yes, it was. Marquez was clearly overweight, and the reach disparity was huge as well. If the Mayweather of 2001 fought the Marquez of 2008 fought at 130, Mayweather would still win, but it would be a damn sight more competitive than that mismatch we saw in September, a little dumpy Marquez plodding after a peak condition Floyd, and hardly mounting a sustained attack in the full fight.

If you have nothing new to say then pack it in here, you are talking bollocks and it's becoming dull. Juan Diaz's nickname!?

 

See comments above Styles make fights, something you dont seem to understand completely. Weight and size are not the only determining factor especially in the case of these fighters.

 

Styles do make fights... if size and weight have not already rendered the fight pointless due to one fighter coming to the ring in a diminished state.

At 130, Marquez destroys a Clottey-standard fighter.
In a welterweight fight, Clottey crushes Marquez.

A win over Marquez in a welterweight fight is not worth much.

A win over any fighter who has jumped 2 weight divisions (further from a division he has not looked sensational in due to size issues) is not worth much.

 

:deal Marquez was given tough fights consistently at Lightweight. What made people think he was going to move up two divisions and be a better fighter?

 

Christ only knows mate. Juan Diaz gave Marquez serious problems with his size and physicality at lightweight, the same Juan Diaz who was soundly beaten by Nate Campbell and went life and death with Paulie Malignaggi. It was only Marquez's accuracy and toughness that got him through that fight, he was clearly not strong enough at 135 to simply overpower Diaz (like I expect Pacquiao would have without much trouble).

But we shouldn't expect much more from this Lefthook chap, last night he was saying that David Haye wouldn't try to bomb B-Hop out at heavyweight, he expects Haye to go all Locche on his ass!!