How hard do you find it to rank Pacquiao...

Again your speculating that 7 pounds rendered Marquez completely helpless against Mayweather. Thats just not true or even close to the realm of reality. Its your way to discount Mayweathers dominant performance.
Were not comparing Joshua Clottey, a physical fighter who pushes forward using pressure, we're talking about a mobile technical fighter who doesnt pressure his opponents or fight anywhere remotely close to Clottey, thats why I say the weight advantage that Mayweather had from being at a more natural weight is less of a factor than youre making it out to be.
Fact is Marquez never had the ability to compete with Mayweather whether he came in at 130,135, or 142, and Floyd proved it by completely taking him apart.
Its never been a discussion of the credibility of the win, its pointing out that your completely blinded by the fact that Marquez at 142 was far more capable then you're are making it seem and the fact that Pac has proven he was the punching monster at 130 pounds, that he was at 140+ yet he was still susceptible to being technically outboxed.

 

It left him a greatly diminished force, and thus a win over a greatly diminished version of a fighter is itself greatly diminished from beating that fighter at his prime weight. It's not rocket science to be honest.

Why would I have any interest in doing that? I have often spoken of how good Floyd's performance was against Corrales. Do you understand the difference between Floyd's wins over Corrales and Marquez? Corrales had amassed a record of 33-0, reached #5 in the p4p rankings and won a world title all at superfeatherweight. Floyd took him on at this weight, and whipped him mercilessly. Beyond criticism. Marquez's record above 140? 0-0. Marquez's record above 135? 0-0. Do you see the difference or don't you? One win is excellent, one win is meaningless. The difference is in the circumstances, not whether I "nuthug" or "hate" Floyd. Grow up.

This is like pulling teeth. Where did I say anywhere that Joshua Clottey fights anything like Floyd Mayweather?? atsch The point was not a comparison of those two, but to highlight the difference in quality between Marquez at sfw and Marquez in a ww fight. I don't rate Clottey, I think he's a basic, one-dimensional plodder. At Marquez's optimum weights (126 & 130) he dismantles a fighter of Clottey's quality level, easily. In a weight class Marquez cannot perform effectively in (welterweight), even an inferior fighter like Clottey (or Berto) would comprehensively defeat him because he is a far weaker and less effective fighter at a weight he cannot handle.

That Clottey and Mayweather are different is completely and utterly irrelevant. This is an analogy to show that Marquez is far better at one weight than another. Do you grasp the fact that a fighter is far better at one weight than another, irrespective of who he fights?

No, Floyd did not prove anything by that fight. I think he'd beat Marquez at 130, you agree, but Floyd didn't prove that by outpointing an overweight and diminished version of Marquez.

Thomas Hearns outboxed and outfought Ray Leonard for the supermiddleweight title, despite the fact it was wrongly called a draw. Does this prove that Hearns would have outboxed and outfought Leonard at 147? Nope, because Leonard stopped him fair and square, but Ray Leonard did not have the same firepower at smw that he had at ww, so it was a different fight.

Now I'm not saying Mayweather-Marquez is the same situation, because I don't think Marquez would have beaten Mayweather at 130, I do not. But it would have been a different fight, a far more competitive fight, because Marquez was much better at 130 than he is over 140.

It has always been a discussion about the lack of credibility of the win. It has virtually no credibility at all, it was a pointless size mismatch. Marquez in a welterweight fight was not capable at all. Any decent welterweight, Clottey, Berto etc, would have crushed him. He was overweight, sluggish, and did not carry his power up.

:huh Yet more nonsense. How exactly was Pac a "punching monster" at 130? Did he prove this by going 12 rounds with Oscar Larios, or going 12 rounds with a past-prime Barrera? Pacquiao's stoppage wins at 130 were all accumulation stoppages, he didn't finish anyone with single shots like he did against Diaz at 135 then Hatton at 140. Cotto at 145 seemed more affected by Pac's clean punches than Marquez, Morales, Barrera or Larios did at superfeather. Unlike Marquez, Pac has seemed to get more powerful as he has moved up in weight. Have you actually seen these fights I have mentioned??

 

See comments above. Exhausting

 

If you are going to reply to a long post statement-by-statement, do it properly or not at all. That crappy underlining your parts still within my quote makes your dull replies even more of a trial to get through. If you don't know how to separate the text properly PM me and I'll show you how it is done.

With regard to your underlined sections, I too am exhausted with this subject. You are clearly not able to comprehend that one fighter being diminished directly affects the value of a win over that fighter, nor do you appear able to grasp that beating a fighter at a weight he has never fought at or is naturally comfortable at does not have the same value as beating him at his optimum fighting weight.

I've made it as simple as I possibly, possibly can for you, but you misunderstand and blunder through every reply, and it's coma-inducingly boring. You think there was value in Mayweather outpointing an overweight Marquez 2 weights higher than he had ever fought before, I do not. Great. What a mutually beneficial learning experience this has been. Classic stuff alright. atsch

 

One thing I must say Popkins is that Marquez DID carry his power up to 135..........

Everything else you say is Gospel; that win over Marquez was a glorified sparring session, except the sparring partner was trying really hard (still completely ineffective and had to ditch his usual perfect punching form for wild, frustrated swings)

I don't rate Floyd until he proves his skill against someone who can REALLY challenge it. At 130lbs the man was sublime, he has always shown fantastic skills but for me, he is a waste of talent.

Imagine if he'd beaten Tszyu at 140, Margarito and Moslwy at 147. That's an undefeated fighter who didn't 'protect his 0'.

If you ask me, whilst not flat-out protecting it, Floyd doesn't really risk it.

Matthew Hatton next :rofl

 

I never said otherwise amigo. Marquez definitely did carry his punching power up, but he did not look as physically strong at 135 as he did below that, because Diaz was swarming him and bullying him early on in that fight. I don't know whether Diaz, being the natural lw, outweighed him on the night or whether it can be attributed to Marquez simply being naturally smaller and having a smaller frame, but he definitely found Diaz very difficult to handle in those first few rounds before JMM's hard accurate punches wore him down.

But Marquez clearly did not carry his power up to welter. Floyd has a good chin, but he has been wobbled and hurt before, I remember in particular Chop Chop Corley giving him spaghetti legs, but when Marquez caught him with a hard clean shot in that fight, Floyd just laughed. Had Mayweather and Marquez fought at 130, Floyd would not have been laughing if he took a full-blooded shot to the jaw.

It was a glorified sparring session, I agree. Marquez was overweight, sluggish, had no zip in his arms or legs, and was facing a significant reach disadvantage. When Mayweather has looked brilliant beating fighters in his own division (eg Corrales), he gets the credit he deserves. When Mayweather has made a smaller man jump 2 divisions to fight him then won on points, he gets absolutely zero credit.

Couldn't agree more. Great talent, ok resume. His career could have been so, so much more - if he didn't waste everyone's time with futile and meaningless fights like Marquez.

Matthew Hatton is a welterweight so expect Mayweather Promotions to make this fight at a 158 catchweight, purely to impress Lefthook31.

 

Again you must be drunk because you're taking all my comments out of context. I havent blundered through anything, nor have I ever stated the win was some great accomplishment on Mayweathers part, simply stating that its not as meaningless as you seem to think, and it does give us a hint of insight into how a guy with Mayweathers skills may match up with Pac's, nothing more. Youre the one who keeps putting posts out there that have nothing to do with the point Im making, and I keep correcting that.
BTW you did insinuate that Marquez didnt bring his power up through his weight jumps. Kind of a copout now to say he didnt bring his power up to welterweight considering he faced one fighter and it was Mayweather, and he was completely shutout. Thats some insightful stuff, maybe you can give me some more predictions of how fights might play out after they happen.

 

From what I heard today both guys have agreed to terms for March 13. Dont take Popkins spinning for my take on the fight. In no way do I think Mayweather enhanced his legacy by beating Marquez, but to discount it as completely meaningless is a bit over the top. It was a glorified sparring session because of Floyds abilities as much as it was Marquez carrying cement shoes, to overlook that is flat out wrong. No fighter of Marquez' skilset becomes that ineffective by putting on seven pounds. Floyds ability definitely had something to do with it.

 

I'll take it you are not interested in my offer to teach you how to reply to lengthy posts correctly. Oh well, fair enough, that's me done my bit to help the poor and downtrodden for today.

Erm, I didn't insinuate that Marquez didn't bring his power up to lightweight. He stopped two previously unstopped opponents - how is that not bringing his power up? :nut

But power is not everything. If you've seen Marquez fight Pacquiao and Peden at feather, then you will know that he was not as strong or effective all-round at light.

But it was patently obvious in the Mayweather-Marquez fight that JMM had lost the snap in his punches. As I have said, Mayweather has a good chin but he is not Marvin Hagler. Chop-Chop Corley shook him to his boots with one well-placed shot, and pound-for-pound Marquez is a much harder hitter than Corley, but when the overweight Marquez landed a full-blooded shot on Mayweather's mush, Floyd grinned. Had they fought at Marquez's optimum weight, Floyd would not have grinned after a full-force hook to the jaw.

Yet again, I find myself getting depressed having to spend time explaining these so, so simple things. :-(

 

:dead I seriously think you must have some sort of undiagnosed disability. How can you still not understand what we are talking about after all this time?!?!?!

Floyd would have beaten Marquez at a weight they were both great at - 130.

I have said this numerous times on this thread, so of course I am recognizing Floyd's ability.

BUT, Floyd didn't beat that version of Marquez, he beat a greatly diminished version while wielding clear and significant size advantages in weight and reach, and height too although that is much less important than the other two.

You ignored this point last time, I assume because you had no answer for it, but since you are fast becoming the proverbial turd that won't flush, I'll bring it back up now:

- If, instead of fighting Antonio Margarito, Shane Mosley had fought Juan Diaz at welterweight, would you say there was any real value in a points win for Shane?

- If, instead of fighting Ricky Hatton, Manny Pacquiao had fought Humberto Soto at junior-welterweight, would you say there was any real value in a points win for Manny?

- If, instead of fighting Verno Phillips, Paul Williams had fought Timothy Bradley at light-middleweight, would you say there was any real value in a points win for Paul?

Of course not. Even though Diaz, Soto and Bradley were some of the best fighters in their divisions at the time, if you make them jump 2 weight divisions then beat them on points, it's ****ing meaningless and pointless.

And those examples aren't even as bad as Mayweather-Marquez, because Marquez was not a natural lightweight anyway, he was already in his 3rd weight class at light, and only had 2 fights there!

atsch Another stupid point. It's not a case of Marquez putting on 7 pounds ffs, it's about Marquez putting on a further seven pounds and giving away significant advantages in weight and reach on the night.

Marquez was not asked to put on seven pounds from his prime fighting weight, he was asked to jump 2 divisions from his 3rd weight class, a weight class he was neither natural to nor prime in.

What you should have said to tell the full story was:

To which I would say, many fighters of Marquez's skillset (or greater) have suffered diminished effectiveness by (a) fighting 4 weight classes above their natural class, or (b) jumping 2 weight divisions for a fight.

 

See comments above, last time.

 

:deadAs if your biased, boring comments weren't enough of a waste of time to pick apart, but now on account of your childish inability to master an absurdly simple quoting system on an internet forum, I need to fish them out of my own post before I harpoon them. Great. More time wasted...

 

Lefthook doesn't ever get proven wrong, and he never takes people's thought on board. ...Still, this is hilarious so keep going.

 

I do that so people like you cant take them out of context. No need to fish them out, Ive only said the same thing over and over for two or three pages straight, you just keep twisting it into some new dimension of bull****, going off on tangents about fights and fighters that the fighters fought which have no relevance to this discussion or the point Ive been making all along.
Me being biased? Ha!, talk about the pot calling the kettle black? This entire thread is about your pitiful biased view.

 

I honestly don't know what else I can do to make this clear to you, I really don't. I think it would take a teacher and nurturer with educational skills and specialties that I do not possess in order to help you, because this is becoming a joke...

Mayweather would have beaten Marquez at 130, because Mayweather is a great fighter, and the superior fighter.

But that is a hypothetical irrelevance. Mayweather fought an overweight, diminished version, and that was obvious to anyone who had followed Marquez's career and had seen his performances at lightweight.

You have indeed made your point about the size/weight factor, but it was dog****. Marquez was patently overweight, more sluggish, and less potent than he is at his own optimum weight. Not only was he greatly diminished in this fight, but he was giving away weight on the night too.

The analogy has everything to do with this sorry debate. If a fighter who was not Floyd outpointed a fighter from 2 divisions below him, you would agree that it was a pointless and meaningless victory. But because we are speaking about Floyd, it's a different case entirely. It is very obvious, and very infantile.

Many, many top fighters have suffered clear and undeniable diminished effectiveness by:

- Fighting 4 divisions above their natural weight class
- Jumping 2 divisions for a fight
- Putting on further weight from their 3rd division as a champion
- Giving away weight on the night to a proven quality welterweight

That you are even attempting to argue against this is just laughable. Take the Mayweather glasses off, you're being ridiculous.