ATG's Who Never Beat A Fellow Great

Koki Kameda of course :good

 

Is that a criteria thing or a misapplication of the criteria? I.e. have I underrated Williams in one of the categories compared to the others I have rated?

By the way what's wrong with having Graham higher? He beat Gavilan, he beat Basilio (arguably multiple times), he beat Giardello (arguably multiple times) and he was somewhat more dominant than Williams. Williams does have the better resume for sure though.

 

I don't know, I can't debate for **** today. I'd probably get owned by one of the noobs in the general forum the way I'm going. Maybe I'll get back to you later when I've built up some time and motivation. Until then I'll just stick to making tongue in cheek comments with no backup.

 

Fair enough. For what it's worth, I would say just looking at my ranking that I have underrated William's resume a bit and he could definitely get a point or so higher in so far as dominance goes....

 

Just criticizing my own list, I find the following fighters rankings somewhat hard to swallow for how high they are:

12. Gene Tunney
33. Duilio Loi
39. Nicolino Locche
45. Marcel Cerdan
62. Lew Tendler

I think the common unsettling thing about the high ranking of the listed fighters above is that whilst they all have a long line of wins and dominant records, their resumes probably don't justify such high rankings.

As far as fighters that seem to be ranked too low:

34. Tony Canzoneri
56. Alexis Arguello
76. Carmen Basilio
100. Jake Lamotta
And of course, thinking about it now, Williams seems too low as well...

 

how did forget him

Alexis Arguello could get some more points in dominance IMO, Basilio is a tough one as statistically hes not the one of the greatest but we know he is.

 

Duran really only beat Leonard. And he didn't knock him out. But Duran did fight greats.

 

You just cant help yourself...do you realise how much of a hater you look like?

There was no need to bring Duran into this thread..by anyones definition he has beaten at least one great, which makes him ineligible for this thread.

But you still find a way to drop his name.

 

Thanks for the explanation Sweet Scientist. Yes, Duran's stoppage of Marcel was one of the most absurd I've seen. I agree he deserves much credit for that fight. I've seen that fool referee in several fights from Panama. He's more concerned with prancing around than calling a good fight. I'm admittedly much more well versed on Sanchez's oponents than Marcel's (don't know a lot about Shibata, Marcano, Smecca). Serrano is definitely a good result. Cheers.

 

Thanks for that. In order to make the list fair to all the participants I decided to leave out the category of ability. I agree with Pea that ability should be a primary criterion for guys we have on film, but unfortunately, when making an all time list we don't have the luxury to view quite a few of the fighters we must rank. Even with the old timers we do have some footage of, it's usually pretty average quality (Gans, Langford, B. Leonard being just some examples of that) and not that much can be gleaned.

I agree with that, Arguello could be a point higher in terms of dominance, especially since I think he didn't lose to Fernandez. I do think Ramirez edged him out though, so hence my somewhat circumspect ranking of him as far as dominance goes. That said, he has an argument for winning both fights.

Basilio has a few losses but yeah he was swimming with the sharks and still got some decent results.

 

Seems about right for me.

 

Fair enough on both counts

Its hard to apply a set criterea on film anyway as boxing has changed abit an dyou would have to look for different things from say Joe Gans comapred to Winky Wright

I thought Arguello won both fights i think Ramirez by 2 or 3 points aswell in an excellant close fight.

I just think ovverall from Featherweight to Super Featherweight he was very dominant then after he won the Lightweight title he was very dominant again.

 

Vitali and Wlad.

 

I'd say the question is paradoxical. I don't believe it is possible to deserve the status of an ATG if you never beat even one.

 

And if they do? Would it automatically qualify them as being an all timer? ...as long as their career was impressive as a whole? ...I'm trying to trap you here.