why do so many old timers look so bad on tape???

Good point. I wouldn't argue vehemently with anyone who said that Barrera was faster, but it's not really an important factor as to where the fight would be won or lost (at least not if the Laguna fight is anything to go by). There's a difference between their combination punching in the aesthetic sense, and if someone thinks that Barrera was better in this regard, fair enough. But there's a difference between hitting Morales with a series of shots and hitting Saldivar with the same series. It ain't happening, and I can see Saldivar countering heavily if Barrera were to try. Magnificent as he was against Hamed, MAB was reluctant to commit to his natural instincts at times because of Hamed's power and counterpunching ability, and I can see Saldivar instilling the same wariness in him.

 

:good Thanks for giving a fighter who was filmed in the days of color a bit of credit, Scientist.

I think Chavez was an extrodinarily good puncher in combination. His punches seem to just flow, to body and head, and you could feel the pain of his opponent because he was digging every shot in. As you said, every shot was meant to hurt and they almost surely did. Chavez never ever looked off balance when he threw his shots, and every shot Marco threw, Chavez threw it better. Straight right, left hook, everything really. The jab is perhaps a little debatable.

 

And let's be realistic, if Saldivar was to square up like he did against Winstone in front of Marco throwing those wide often looping shots, he'd get countered too. They were both world class operators.

 

I know. Lighten up for ****s sake. Saldivar got hit, he was too offensively orientated not to get hit. Never anywhere did I say that he wasn't or didn't. Barrera probably did have an edge in speed and fluidity that would see him have some success. And he was a quicker combination puncher, though not as powerful. It's just clear that Saldivar held advantages in other key areas that I've already elaborated on, as his career displayed, whether the footage exists on youtube or not. You brought up Barrera being a slightly more fluid fighter and practically based the entire outcome of the fight on it.

Little difference: jab, footwork, mid range ability (though I'd lean slightly toward VS for all 3 despite it being debateable), ring-generalship and defensive nous (I'd be inclined to side with VS again considering how he used his stature to work his way inside).

Barrera: quicker combination puncher and greater fluidity of form. Slightly quicker in general.

Saldivar: better two fisted power (especially the left), better body attack, greater inside ability, durability, composure under fire, better resume against a wider demographic of opponents without a prime loss.

That's putting it extremely crudely. But I think it suggests, apart from their actual careers that Saldivar should be the reasonable favourite moreso than Barrera. Make of it what you will if I haven't offended your sensibilities too much. I'll not pick on Mr Barrera if it upsets you. :roll:

 

The moment I insinuate that Barrera could possible land a punch on Saldivar, I'm being sensitive? ...Come on, Tin.

I thought my reasoning behind Barrera beating Saldivar at 126lbs was outlined when the disparity in size and reach was outlined by yourself, in which I then elaborated on how that reach could see Marco win rounds with a great jab that was often on display. Likewise, Saldivar being a natural counter-puncher, he'd eventually feel forced or compelled to engage the action out of frustration and in engaging, would become subject to Marco's sharp counters. I said this all earlier, actually.

My only issue was you not giving Barrera credit for anything and in having a constructive debate involving two world class talents...that just doesn't work. Happy to see you concede that Marco did have some talent though.

 

The film of Saldivar is for the most part great quality and I cant for the life me understand why someone cant watch and see one of the best H2H featherweights ever. (Not directed at you Addie)

He was as (I feel more) impressive as Barerra IMO. Even with Marco being a little more eye catching with his style and combo punching.
Vicente is the sort of guy who you probably wont appreciate straight away if you have been conditioned to the T.V friendly fighters HBO like to spruik...Sort of like Monzon in a way, who did not impress me at all when I was younger and had a far less trained eye.

 

That wasn't patronizing...in the slightest. :good

We can disagree on who looks more impressive on film for the time being. It's almost my obligation to seek out more footage of the man, and I'll take great pleasure in doing so.

 

I disagree with the premise of the thread. When I watch Tommy Loughran or Freddie Steele, I see guys that would have little trouble competing in any era. And while some techniques and strategies were advanced after that point, there are things the old timers did that modern fighters would do damn well to emulate. Some have been gained. Some has been lost. A lot has been lost in contemporary times.

As for how fighters look on film, I think this important for reference. For example, we know Harry Greb must have been amazing to watch because he beat all those fighters we can see on film and they look terrific!

Finally, I don't think film itself has anything to do with being able to determine how good fighters are. You can correct the speed if it bothers you to watch it fast.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Djl3quTJ8Y[/ame]


Both so slow....so sluggish.No snap at all...standing...in.....cement...

seriously though, i think combinations/speed etc don't have a big enough difference to be a fight changing point to focus on...both could be very precise, or wing punches, Sladivar tended to be pinpoint with the left and less orthodox with his hooks...barrera a bit more balanced, but not as heavy handed; Saldivar's straight elft down the pipe was truly great single shot.Best to try and weigh everything up here, and also consider saldivar was fighting a guy who controls distance and the balance of his opponents much better than most featherweights since him.If you're going to point out drawbacks against winston, then compare them to similar efforts against Morales, pac, Mckinney etc and not lower level men or shot fighters like tapia.

I don't like using a few gifs to illustrate things in debates like this, you could easily make both look much worse than they were or much better depending on your interest and the footage you choose, even if not being intentionally bias.

 

I think its a good barometer to see how styles have changed though, and I agree the old timers did a lot of things better, but there has been some changes that would have helped the old timers as well, specifically defensively.

 

:verysad Not at all. I was fighting Marco's corner specifically in the combintion punching area. I wasn't strongly disagreeing with anyone who pick Saldivar in a fight, but I want to see if anyone was willing to concede that Marco was better than Saldivar at something. It hasn't been that postitive to be honest, but I think my points as to why I consider Marco a better combination made sense and I stick by it.

If anyone was being bias, it was Tin_Rubs. I tried to sought out the bets possible footage available of Saldivar and even gave him a chance to try and find better. What he produced was awesome. Saldivar was clearly the heavier hitter, and he did put punches together well and as you mentioned, his straight left looked outstanding. That said, he doesn't outdo Barrera in every facet of the game, footage certainly agrees with me I feel.

And I hope that's not that aimed at me. I'll say it again, I've given the man the credit I think the footage of him deserves and that means to say I was highly impressed indeed. Tin_Rubs was describing Marco as somewhat of a B level fighter.

 

Barrera is in a different weight division to Saldivar, a bit of a pointless discussion regarding who wins.

Even if Barrera was shrunk in a high temperature wash, he'd probably have a field day countering Saldivar with great frequency given the way Saldivar dropped his right hand after each and every jab he threw, his non outstanding speed and range.

 

Barrera was at his best at Featherweight, as was Saldivar.

 

aimed more at powerpunchers comments earlier, addie.punching under water, slow as molasses, no snap in the jab etc..