Is Vitali Klitschko an ATG?

Any fighter with at least a 2:1 win:loss ratio that either Willie Pep or Marciano beat, are automatically considered legends.

 

I think it's hard to compare heavyweight opposition vs. non-heavyweight opposition, because non-heavyweight champions always have to face boxers who can reach a certain weight. Even with weight-draining and such, that still creates a minimum requirement of fitness that doesn't exist at heavyweight. This wasn't such a problem back when most heavyweights trained to slim down and had physiques to be proud of, but there's been a steady decline in the conditioning of heavyweights since about 1970: the 1970s had more undertrained contenders than the 1960s, the 1980s were even worse, the 1990s made up for a lack of drugs with an excess of flab, and the turn of the century has been the worst yet. Just compare Ali's title challengers in the 1970s with the dross that the Klitschko brothers (who are well trained) have had to face them in the modern era. A lot of modern heavyweights should be deeply ashamed of themselves and I have enjoyed seeing the Klitschko brothers beat the crap out of their fat worthless husks.

Calzaghe had some truly atrocious opposition, but he never faced a disgraceful fat slob like Corrie Sanders, Danny Williams, Sam Peter, Kirk Johnson etc. and like you say, when Calzaghe faced great fighters in their twilight years, he beat them.

Vitali's refusal to deal with Don King did indeed harm his legacy in the long run. A rematch with Chris Byrd or even a fight with John Ruiz would have served him well, as would a fight with a peak Brewster.

 

Each of these was a highly rated fighter or champ. The fact that each chose to not even try to train seriously underscores the fact they had no chance to win, and they realized it. As Manny Steward contends, Vitali is one of the most intimidating heavyweights in history. It is not his fault if top level fighters who were recently in top shape are beaten before they enter the ring.

 

It's not his fault, but it's not to his credit either, and the fact that boxers with so little desire and such little conditioning can get a high rating or championship status says wonders about this era of heavyweight boxing.

 

I dont believe this to be the case whatsoever. You didnt see guys show up to fight Mike Tyson completely out of shape, and he was probably the most, "no win situation", champ in the history of heavyweight boxing.

 

i agree w/ this. it is only opinion. I could say Leon Spinks at his best was great but noone can prove it wrong. it's all what style of fighter and personality you like.:hat

 

exactly. end of thread

 

I will say I hate ranking fighters throughout history and coming up with a bunch of mythical BS lists which I dont take part in, but in recent times, there is a strong basis to evaluate a fighters level of opposition if you have some knowledge of the sport. Compiling all that info along with all the crap that goes on behind the scenes to place a historical ranking on all fighters through time is impossible and a bunch of wasted time in my opinion.

 

Being Ring champ means nothing now. Back in the late 70s and early 80s when a 50 member panel chose the ratings it meant something. But now it is worthless I could put out a mag in my garage and put out ratings and it would mean about the same. It has no value than an alhphabet rating in one of their organizations.:hat

 

The difference is Johnson has a better defense and great speed, Im not sure if Morrison was in better shape, maybe a lower bodyfat, Johnson may well UD old George too, not sure a young George KOs him either

 

Who has Johnson beaten to rank him anywhere near Tommy Morrison?

What does Johnson have to stop Foreman from bombing away on him without a care in the world?

Foreman could have stopped Morrison, if he hadn't had to think about the punches coming the other way.

 

I did some research. Vitlai has lost about 7-8 rounds in his entire ring career. By contrast Joe Louis lost more rounds in two matches vs. Billy Conn, and Ali lost more rounds matches with Doug Jones, and Jimmy Young.

If there is a boxer with a better rounds won to rounds lost ratio that Vitali, I can't say who he is. At worst Vitali has only lost two consensus rounds in a boxing match.

 

I tend to doubt that. Foreman cherry picked slow guys. He went the distance with guys like Stewart ( and got beat up during the process ) Crawford Grimsley, and Alex Shultz. Foreman lost a decsion to Tommy Morrison. No--Foreman is not taking kevin Johnson out. In fact he could lose a decision if he's not careful.

This is total BS. Arreloa hook him up? Where? What round? Also, I challenge you to show me a fighter who has taken better direct bombs on film and not gone down. The uppercut by Lewis and the hook to the side of the head by Sanders were KO shots that few recover from.

Marciano fans kill me. The Rock was floored by the two best punchers he fought in Walcott ( and in worse shape than Vitali was even in in round 11 ), and Moore, in additon to being stunned by the likes of Lorwy and Vingo...but he's got a concrete chin, and Vitali's chin in your own words i greatly over rated?

You do agree that Lewis and Sanders hit much harder than Moore and Walcott. I'd like to read your repsone.

IMO, Vitlai has one of the ten best chins in heavyweight history, and its been tested by the best of Lewis, Sanders, and Hide.

 

Ali had this thing called Parkinson's which may have hampered him a tad.

My grandpa could beat Ali right now and they're about the same age, I guess that means he's a legend too because he's better at 60 some years old

The big reason Vitali is still at a high level is because the contenders today suck, and the fact he was only ever involved in a very, very small handful of fights in which the guy presented a challenge. Meaning that he didn't get worn down by wars like Foreman and Holmes.

 

Your grandpa is about the same age as Ali? You must be a young poster. You have a lot to learn.

Holmes had his hands full with Carl Williams, and lost to the likes of Mike Spinks? Sorry, Vitali rolls both guys that Holmes had issues with.

Foreman got canned by Jimmy Young, and embarassed by the likes of Tommy Morrison.

If you want to use Sonny Liston as example of an older fighter, Martin had him out cold for at least 60 seconds

It might pain your brian, but the fact is Vitali is one of the best 38 year old fighters of all time.