Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

I don't buy this argument. I think his style worked for his era and worked a short time. Maybe the closest match would be Tua when he used to have a high work rate, except Tua had more pop in punches. And we can see how Tua fared against Lewis or even closer to his prime, Ike. I just don't see a guy of Frazier's size/strength/style doing well against the superheavies.

 

I think you make a pretty good point actually. Frazier of course isn't a kind of fighter that comes along every now and then, though. Even in the 70 years of gloved boxing (or the 45 years of the 15 rds limit) before him there never had been a 200+ lbs guy with his work-rate and pressure. Actually, 20 lbs lighter Marciano is the only that can compete. Seen from that perspective it's less odd.

Also, with today's 12 round distance and weight-lifting Frazier would look a bit more like Cooper or Tua. He would probably be a trim 220 lbs and have the same pace over 12 as the real version had over 15.

 

Well, the Joe Frazier of Ali 1, Quarry 1, and Ellis, certainly is getting underated on this site. I dont see Bowe's workrate being able to withstand Fraziers body work and Hook.Bowe had enough power to hurt Joe but Frazier could also bang much Harder than Holyfield and Joe had great recup and stamina. I like Joe over Bowe

As far as Lewis, I would go with Lennox in this matchup but Frazier IMO hit harder with the Hook then McCall and Rahman and they both KO'd Lennox with one punch so we should not discount Joes chances and landing an incredible hook. I think Lennox would fight Joe the way he did Tua but Joe was a far greater pressure fighter than Tua and faster.

I think Vladmir at this point in time is tough to get to with his jab, movement and right hand but 10 fights or so ago I remember the hook Brewster hit him with and Brewster could not punch like Joe. The trouble with this fight is that Vlad has a very precise jab and right hand but even on his worst night Joe got up 6 times vs Foreman a prime Joe had recup...I give Vlad the edge here but do not count out Joes chances

Vitali because of his size would be hard for Joe as well but the Pressure Joe put on a fighter and stamina and work rate makes me believe this would be a battle of attrition and Vitali could also get cut. Chris Byrd was not Big but held on and survived Vits power, Joe took more punches YES but does Vitali have the power to KO Joe. I see this as a 12 rder and a close decision, could go either way.

 

Prime Frazier, 1967- 1969/70, beats them all inside the 15 round distance if any of Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's make it that far. I say Frazier's body attack, pace and work-rate would be the difference. None of these three fighters face the type of fighter Frazier was in his prime. Only Lennox Lewis faced and KO'd a very faded Tyson, who despite being in decent shape, didn't have much left.

Lewis and Bowe prime for prime against Frazier I see being the toughest challenges for him. Lewis because his outside boxing skills are underrated, his reach advantage and that he was perhaps the most athletic of the biggest heavyweights in the history of the sport. Bowe, would make the fight very interesting and could hurt Joe in his element because he had arguably the best in-fighting skills of all the big heavyweights.

Now, facing the 1973 version that Foreman Ko'ed insided two rounds. Frazier likely gets knocked out by all of the above with the quickesst KO coming from Lewis before round 5.
Bowe and the Klitschko's probably KO this version of Frazier inside 10 rounds. None of them are destroying Frazier, a depleted Frazier that was, like Foreman did in 1973.

 

Ok, if Joe Frazier-clone fighters naturally come around more often, where are all the Joe Fraziers at cruiserweight even ?

 

The average size of his opponents during this stretch was right about 200 pounds. Only butterball Mathis was much above. That is the crux of the issue here. Could even the best version of Frazier, who only proved himself against what would be today very undersized heavies, be enough for the best giants of the 90's and 00's. Color me sacrilegious but I think not.

 

Lennox beats him-No doubt in my mind.
Vitali beats him-Just can't be bothered to think of a way that Frazier could win and debate it for 70-odd pages
He beats Wlad-easy enough.
Bowe beats him-Bowe had enough of a chin to hang with Frazier long enough to get his bombs off, as we all know Bowe was a damn good inside fighter for a man of his size. Bowe can negate getting hit too much by his jab, size and strength, as I think Frazier has the power to put Bowes lights out. Whilst strong and very tough, lets not forget that Bowe was very hurt by Holyfield throughout their series, and whilst I feel Holyfield is not as some say a 'feather fist' (I'd say he's a spiteful puncher with good form and variety) I'd definitely say Frazier has the much harder single punch of the two.

The left hook, which Bowe, who was hittable and would come to fight, was open for.

50-50, just go for Bowe's size advantages to hold out.

 

The way George casually shoved back and pushed around steroid pumped block of granite Tommy Morrison absolutely convinces me of this. (Neither did Foreman take a backwards step against Holyfield.)

George never put any great effort into manhandling opponents like Morrison and Frazier, he did it almost as an afterthought.

In a sumo wrestling match between Foreman and Lewis or either of the Klitschkos, I would absolutely have bet the mortgage on Big George.

 

I've decided Frazier is 4-0 in this. :smile

*Maybe some bias included.

 

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The problem is that once he met a decent super-heavy he was bounced all over the ring. And that particular fighter wasn't even that big by recent standards, but was strong as an ox. Vit, Wlad and Lewis are all immensely strong, a common comment of opponents and sparring partners. They are also huge and skilled in using their size and strength as an advantage.

 

That "decent super heavy" was able to win the lineal title in his late 40s in this era of geneticaly enhanced superheavyweight monsters, and they couldn't den't his chin as badly as feather fisted Jimmy Young did.

 

Those picking Frazier to win more often then not aren't factoring in the following.

Frazier struggled vs bigger fighters, and had a suspect chin vs punchers. Style wise, when a swarmer faces a bigger puncher...the puncher is going to win more often than not. Above and beyond that, all of the above fighters are better boxers than Frazier is, which pretty much eliminates a decision win for Smokin' Joe, who was more of a grind it out type, than pure bomber.

 

Ali was quite a decent boxer too tbf to him