is joe frazier really a top 8 ATG heavyweight

Well i honestly think so, yes. He had the potential to become one of the top 3-5 ever if he had not ran into Foreman. I mean, Bonavena, Machen, Chuvalo, Mathis, Quarry, Zyglewicz, Ellis, Foster, Bugner and ofcourse Ali. No suckers. All good wins, with 1-3 being great.

 

**** yes.

Prime Ali
Quarry
Bonavena x2
Ellis
Destroyed Foster
Machen
Chuvalo
Doug Jones
Bugner

That isn't a half bad resumé at all.

Greatest HW win of all-time over a prime Ali.
ATG pressure fighter, a nightmare H2H for a lot of guys.
And all this despite barely tipping the 200 mark, at 5'11½", and being one-handed and partially blind in one eye.

 

yeah win1 vs a prime and undefeated ali was the greatest hw win ever--i totally agree

and let's not forget that his loss in thrill-manilla is one of the greatest performances by a hw ever also--he beat the hell out of ali in that fight

his other wins are very impressive too and if it weren't for his terrible match-up issues with big george i'd have him top 3-5 hws...as it is he's a definate top 10

 

Yes, Joe Frazier is the man.

 

I've always thought very highly of Frazier. A real stand up guy, and a very good fighter. But at his size, which was really only a Cruiser, I don't think he'd have a prayer in the modern era of huge HWs.

A guy weighing 205 pounds fighting Lewis, or either of the K brothers? It would be "Down goes Frasssia" all over again.

 

Definitely.

 

The heavyweights of today are just to damn big for guys like Quarry and Bonavena to deal with, but make no mistake, pound for pound the 2nd tier fighters of Frazier's era were better boxers than most modern heavyweights. Quarry was fast and very skilled. Bonavena was one tough sob, and had good skills. Frazier is a long way from being a one hit wonder.

 

Frazier never fought prime Ali. However, his win against not prime Ali was still a great win, and his resume otherwise is easily good enough for top eight at Heavyweight all-time.

 

Actually i have him 9 0r 10 on my list but,I wouldnt argue with anyone that put him 8th.

 

No offence mate, but this is what it comes down to. All you are doing is trundling though Boxrec looking at how many fights each guy lost, and it doesn't tell the whole story.

For example, Foster lost early on to solid contenders like Doug Jones - who gave Ali one of his toughest nights - Zora Folley & Ernie Terrell, before he became the fighter he was. And it was Joe's destructive performance more than anything.

Chuvalo had lost 13 times yes, but it was again the perforance. Joe left him battered, bruised and uncharacteristically hurt as he stopped Chuvalo - albeit on his feet - and Chuvalo had an ATG chin and regularly went the distance, not even George Foreman did that much damage to Chuvalo despite landing about 20 clean punches down the barrell with Chuvalo up against the ropes trying to defend himself.

Quarry had lost a couple yes, but that was against Patterson & Ellis. He was a good puncher and a solid fighter, he struggled mainly with upright boxers like Machen or Ali, stylistically he matched up better against Joe but Frazier beat him in 5.

*PS - Frazier stopped Mathis in 11, it wasn't a majority decision. The only other guy to do so was the hard-hitting Ron Lyle at the end of Mathis' career. He wasn't great though, I'll admit.

I believe Ali was prime. Some may say his best showing and his true prime was the Cleveland Williams fight, others will say his prime would of been during the 3 years off his exile. We have no way of telling. Ali looked his usual self in that FOTC, and was it was as close to a prime Ali as we ever saw. I take nothing away from Frazier whatsoever.

There's a thread on the Classic called something like 'Joe Frazier vs Superheavyweights' if you'd like to debate it. There's a lot of valid points in that thread and some interesting discussion. I disagree entirely with you though if I'm honest. Frazier was strong, full of heart, difficult to tag cleanly, and closed the distance excellently, and had the power to hurt anybody. Neither Lewis or the Klitschko brothers could do what Foreman did in standing up to him, dropping their hands and delivering great power from low uppercuts like Foreman.

Besides, if we are basing it on the Foreman showing, that wasn't a prime Frazier. And Ali had Super-Heavy dimensions to an extent. 6'3" with an 80" reach and he tried to utilise that. Not to mention the quick hands, quick feet, jab, 1-2, timing, durability and heart. And Frazier beat him prime-for-prime.

:smoke

 

the number of losses hardly determine the quality of a fighter.