Ali & Floyd: Arrogant and Funny vs Arrogant and Abrasive

Mayweather plays a villain role to sell PPVs. Down to every last detail, the whining primadonna stuff, the self-aggrandizing, the dismissal of contemporary greats, the wars with Brian Kenney...I don't buy a scrap of it. All a put-on...he's about as good an actor as any of his WWE cohorts. :yep

Of course Ali was a showman, too - much of his vaunted arrogance was probably very contrived and self-aware in nature and intended to simply promote the events.

As cuchulain intimated earlier, ultimately all this stuff is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, Ali - between exploiting Vietnam and the existing racial tensions of the day to sensationalize and glorify himself as a martyr, the outright disrespect (beyond showmanship) he showed Frazier, and basically just by association with the NOI - was a bit of a scumbag.

 

Maybe I am just partial to the showmanship of Ali and the whole resume and proving it when he had to. Mayweather is not in that class, and as a matter of fact his whole family comes off as bitter and insulting to anyone except themselves- that does not appeal to me. James Toney is that way a little also, and I am not sure it is acting as much as just bitterness on their part. I am not sure it is acting the villian as much as they actually believe they are. Ali made it a show and really was entertaining. Duran made himself the bully and really was that way, it was not a show with Roberto and it worked and it actually helps legacies a little I believe. After Lampkin I thought he went too far with his comments, but people also see that as a guy who is confident and a real fighter. But I thought Duran went to far there. I agree with you that Ali might be seen as exploting Vietnam or the Civil Rights issues, but that shows you he was a person of his day in the mid 1960's. He was bigger than boxing and Mayweather is not. Just not the same level. Ali had a brilliance to him. After for Mayweather and Kenney,Brian Kenney controls those interactions with Mayweather and makes Mayweather looked ridiculous, Ali would have made Kenney look ridiculous.

 

There is an element of acting since Mayweather knows the guys he fought were not great fighters, and he still says he is great and has fought them all. So that is acting, I just do not see him as at the level of an Ali or Leonard or Duran. Thomas Hearns was not a guy who insulted guys or bragged, and it would have helped him even more, and he was famous. Mayweather is a case where he talks and does not have the resume, and Hearns is a guy who has the resume, but was not a talker.

 

Ali was human. Not a ****ing god. Why dont you watch the Ali Frazier documentary and maybe you wouldnt have such a silly school girl opinion of the man.

He could be just as crude, ignorant and abrashive as Mayweather. Even more so. Maywether never went to a Klan rally to promote segregation or call another man an uncle tom and getting his kids abused at school

 

Ali was a mean, narcissistic, hateful ***** with some of things he said about people, i.e frazier, and especially about "white" people in general. Its hilarious he's part Irish and even went to Ireland to connect with his roots. Talk about irony...

 

He wasn't the Anti-Christ, and he was certainly one hell of a boxer - arguably the GOAT at his weight (bit of a Holmes/Ali/Louis juggler myself) - but remembering him as a saint is either folly, selective nostalgia, or group-think. A lot of people thinking that way nowadays probably has to do with the pathetic (and, by default, sympathetic) figure he is at present.

Young Clay/Ali was pretty much a dickhead, with his inflated head fully up his ass (that very gay imagery was not intentional, but funny, so let's leave it...).

 

So anyone who takes issue with the "Ali-is-a-pricki" view is s a "silly school girl ?'

In response to a post that ridicules Ali:

I posted a factual statenment, one that is irrefutable, regardless of one's opinion:

Somebody who thinks they know everything about the man from one documentary, needs to get their head outta their ass.

 

Them's fightin' words, pretty !

Now before I go badmouthin' your momma, could you point out ONE instance of lying on my part ?

 

How did Ali exploit Viet Nam ?

Most folks believe nowadays that he was on the right side of history on that issue, and has been pretty much vindicated.

(A vindication that didn't come soon enough to prevent him losing the three most prime years of his career).


A mostly right-wing US Supreme court overturned his convictions on draft evasion. What this means is that he was wronged in the first place by the establishment. It didn't help his case that he came across as cocky, uppity, didn't appear to know his place.

He wasn't willing to follow in the footsteps of Joe Louis, who, like a 'good negro' helped out the US Army, put on numerous exhibition bouts at no charge, and was later hounded practically to death by the IRS. In his latter days, he worked as a doorman at Vegas Casinos.

And why the **** should he lose a BOXING title over a political disagreement with the US gvernment ?

America is an important boxing locale, no doubt. But losing a WORLD (not an American) title because he had a beef with Uncle Sam ?



How did he exploit the "...existing racial tensions of the day ?"

Was he responsible for the prevailing majority attitudes towards blacks ?

Sure, he was expected to conduct himself in a manner befitting a 'good negro' as seen by the dominant racist society of the day, where apartheid was still a reality as late as the second year of his title reign.

And it's a goddamn shame he didn't understand what his place was, and didn't show sufficient respect for his 'betters.'

A century earlier, they woulda had that boy out in the fields and lost any chance of ever being a 'house-slave.'


Yes.

I suppose he should have just kept his head low and "Yes, sir" and "No Sir" and not said anything that might offend decent folks or make them feel uncomfortable.


But it wasn't in his nature.

At 22, he was ripe pickings for the Nation of Islam and all the manipulation wrought on him by that group. But as he got older, he saw through all of that and made his break with them.

I have never defended his treatment of Frazier, and he clearly made mistakes. I believe he overhyped the ugly gorilla bit and , while not intentionally mean, caused a great deal of hurt to Joe. It wasn't Joe's fault that most white folks in the US wanted him to shut that 'big mouth up' once and for all.

He did apologize and has tried to make amends.


And Joe is at least as much 'hurt' by the losses as the trash-talking.

Had Joe won all three bouts, I doubt he would be as bitter.


Joe had a grudging respect for Ali, even in Manila.

Watch the end of the fourth and fifth rounds of the fight and observe Joe's gestures at the end of the round, when he smacks Ali's glove on his way to his corner.

The fight was undecided at that point, and if Joe had won, he would be a less bitter man today.

Other than his mistreatment of Frazier, what the **** else does he have to apologize for ?

Nobody (save a few thin-skinned ****wits) got overly excited when BHop
said he'd never lose to a white boy.

Yes, the man had his faults.

Who doesn't ?

But he WAS boxing for such a long time. He created interest in the sport (often by fostering the haters) and made it exciting.

He invented trash-talking. And he was witty. His poems, calling the rounds etc, all part of a persona that wasn't too far off the real Ali, not much acting was needed.

He instilled pride and a lot of people in the US who had little to celebrate and he was an icon in my nook of the woods (Ireland, in case you haven't guessed) at a time when we were struggling with the British for basic civil rights.

A hero (flawed, no doubt) to a great many people all over the world.



I know its a matter of opinion but...

***** ?

Scumbag ?


Come on, lad. I think you know better than that.

 

Why can't the draft issue be separated from his race? He gets a free pass on an issue that really has nothing to do with race because society at the time was racist? :huh

Incidentally, that specifically is what I was referring to by "exploiting racial tension". The "No vietcong ever called me a...' comment. If that isn't tacky sensationalism I don't know what is. **** you, Cassius...a lot of people went and did their job who didn't want to for various personal reasons (whether morally opposed, or having domestic duties to attend to, whatever)...a lot of people in less fortunate circumstances to whom whining to the media seemed a pretty bourgeouise luxury. And a good many conscientious observers, running the racial gamut (ie Stephen Spiro), were convicted and later pardoned. Are they vindicated by history? Well...that depends. Were they correct in hindsight about the justness of the war? Doesn't matter, the fact is that their contract as citizens as it stood at the time stipulated that they answer the call of duty, and they didn't. And lots of others did, and many died in the process, and that's a bit unfair. There's a war on, Cassius. Shut up and suit up. Rail against the government when your tour's done, as many others did.

 

A lot of poeple went and "did their job ?"


WTF ?


Is this OPie ?

How the **** did you get into IB's account ?


Did their job ?

The ****in' war was bullsihit, from day one, when LBJ FABRICATED the bay of Tonkin incident as an excuse to get into the war.
(WMDs sixties style !)

It was eventually seen by most of the American population as a bull**** war, without any proper aims or justificatin, and certainly not in any but the most far-fetched way, in defence of the US.

Shut up and suit up, there's a war on.

Just follow orders, huh ?

Do like everybody else, whether it makes sense or not.

You do know that Ali was cleared of draft dodging by the highest court in your land ?

And received an apology from the US government ?



And as for his comment regarding no Vietnamese ever calling him N***** ?

You may see that as cheap sensationalism, but it was completely factual and made sense from Ali's viewpoint.

(His name was not Cassius at that point, some of your true colours might be starting to show)


Why should he fight for a country that treats him like **** and confers second class status on him, against a people he has no beef with and who are not attacking, nor planning to attack his homeland.

His contract as a citizen ?

A second class citizen who couldn't eat at the white counter, drink from the white fountain, or ride at the front of the bus.

Who could get lynched for looking the wrong way at a white woman ?




The intent and meaning of his comments were crystal clear and perfectly justifiable.

 

What the hell does this mean?

He's surely still Cassius to some people (childhood friends, for instance), regardless of what his legal documents say. What do you think Odessa called him? You really think he forced her to break a 22 year habit to accommodate him? As much as he loved and respected her? I'd bet the farm, she was "Bird" and he was "Cassius" right up until the end.

Does it show "true colours" to refer to Chad Ocho Cinco as "Mr. Johnson"? He, too, legally changed his name to something silly. Does he deserve the same walking-on-eggshells level of respect? :think

As far as the context of the 60's...that's a whole other debate. I certainly wasn't alive at the time, if you were then I defer to your life experience as far as what was going on. At the end of the day, playing the race card to evade service is distasteful to me, regardless of whether it's perfectly justifiable. If that makes me ignorant of the sociocultural atmosphere at the time, well so be it. Like I said, I wasn't around. That's the kind of thing that you can't get from hard facts in history books, you need to have lived it. Different generations have different perspectives. From mine, race relations in the 60's weren't ideal from what we're told, but a lot better than even a few decades prior, and bad enough to justify outright refusal to serve the country one has become a successful borderline (at the time) superstar in, when your countrymen are actively dying in a conflict (regardless of whether the conflict was ill-advised to get involved with at the onset)? I don't know...

 

You need an answer to that ?

Seriously ?


There's probably not much amiss with having this flag in your window.

This content is protected

And maybe some folks might read too much into such a gesture.

Still.... :think

And you're on the same terms of intimacy with the man and entitled to take the same liberties as his mother ?

You're Reallllly s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g here !

He is more or less universally known nowadays as Muhammad Ali.

Even Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell Would probably call him Mr. Ali.

(Oops, forgot that Floyd has moved upstairs, maybe Ernie too, for all I know)


The ONLY reason people refer to him as Clay now (other than when referring to his first 22 years) is to insult the man, something most wouldn't dare do to his face when he was still healthy.

At any rate, I'm sure you're bright enough to catch my general drift.





That was the only part of my post that you felt needed comment?

 

Void is void.

 

I like that quote, but Thomas Hauser said he could find no evidence that Ali actually said that.

Obviously Hauser did a ton of research for that book he did, which I think is a must-read for boxing historians.