Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

There's no basis for pressure fighters being consistently at a disadvantage against bigger punchers them themselves.

Also, Vitali is also a grind you out style of fighter who often took far too long to get his guy out of their, stopping opponents with all the effectivness of a man clubbing and failing to kill a rabbit.

Vitali also didn't affect a ancient Lennox Lewis as much as the following fighters whom, by your own standards, must of been harder punchers.

Shannon Briggs
Gary Mason
Frank Bruno
Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall (sparked him the **** out and one shotted him)

Now I'm focusing on Vitali because you seem sold on him beating Frazier, beyond that 9/10ths of your posts are about the man regardless so...

 

I Understand your point Mendoza, nice post. I think you're underrating Frazier's skills as a boxer though. Eddie Futch to the day he died said Frazier would be too much for Bowe to handle and would beat him convincingly.

Mike Tyson is the last heavyweight that moved his head and rotated his shoulders in the manner of attacking style that Frazier did. Tua stood up a lot more and didn't move his head as much. Part of Joe's game was to make people miss with his head movement. You contradict yourself suggesting that Frazier, not as a pure bomber but grind-it-out type fighter wouldn't win a decision? If Bowe, Lewis, or either Klitschko makes it past the middle rounds against a prime Frazier, do you honestly think their work-rates would be greater than Fraziers? I highly doubt that. I favour Joe winning decisions against all of these superheavies, prime for prime, based on the fact that stamina would be an issue. Joe is one of the top all time heavies for pure stamina, with Marciano arguably ahead of him or behind him.

Speed would also be a factor because none of these superheavies were as quick on foot as Ali, and Frazier caught Ali repeatedly in the FOTC. Sure, Ali wasn't the fleet footed boxer he was in 1967, but he was still the fastest heavyweight on foot at the time, and compared to today, he still is. Only featherdusting Chris Byrd or Roy Jones, albeit never a true heavyweight can compare footspeed to Ali. Again, the only Frazier that these superheavies beat convincingly is the one who showed up in 1973 that got whupped by Foreman.

 

I think Frazier beats all of them prime for prime.

 

Lineal title in the 90's means **** to me. Frans Botha had Moorer reeling, too. And Axel Schulz, Alex Stewart and Lou Savarese beat that version of Foreman in my book. The discussion regarding Big George is immaterial. We are talking about Frazier's response to the truly big men of recent heavyweights.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's being difficult targets for Frazier to hit. These four big heavyweight bodies would get ripped on the inside from Frazier's body shots and constant pressure.
Only Bowe makes it interesting, prime for prime, because he had considerable inside skills as a big man.

Chris Byrd? David Haye? You serious?

 

You'll get no argument from me. The 70's heavyweights are by far my favorite of all the boxers. That being said, I just can't visualize Frazier beating any of those guys no matter how much a benefit of a doubt I give him. Note I'm pretty scientific with my approach. I factor things that the general diehard boxing fan wouldn't. Plus I am a diehard 70's fan myself and I have quite an abudance of knowledge about Frazier in case you think I'm speaking out of bias toward the modern heavyweights.

 

Russell,

Since your poking fun at me, here's your touché. What you don't know about boxing can fill an ocean. Punchers usually beat swarmers, especially if they are better boxers and have the better chin.

In this match up, Frazier gives up size, durability in 3 of 4 cases, and power in at least 3 of 4 cases. Since Frazier has to pay the price to get inside, and can be handled in a clinch by a bigger man, and only has one punch to worry about.....use your imagination

 

Wlads a class boxer but he cant fight. As soon as hes in a fight he panics, usually gets hurt, and then starts trying to run away looking to make it out the round.

Sam Peter was fast enough to catch him and scare the **** out of him on a few occasions, and frazier wouldnt be able to?

The other fights are interesting ones but dismissing Frazier against somebody as vulnerable as wlad is just ludicrous. As is claiming they were all too good boxers for Frazier to win a decision against whne he decisioned THE greatest heavyweight boxer.

 

Agree with you Mendoza.

Frazier does have a significant size disadvantage to all of these superheavyweight fighters, there's no denying that. Durability though, prime for prime? That one is debatable.

George Chuvalo personally told me Frazier's left hook was a deadly shot and his right hand was an underrated hard punch too, considering that Frazier is celebrated most for his left hook. He also said Foreman had tremendous power in both hands but still feels cheated to this day by the refs who stopped that fight early contending that he wasn't hurt even though Foreman had him backing him up. Chuvalo said 1960's Ali would have beaten everyone today, because Ali's power before his exile was underrated and his hand and footspeed were arguably the fastest of all time at heavyweight.

Frazier paid the price getting inside against Ali in three fights, Manilla being the most damaging IMO. Still in the other two, Frazier landed big shots against Ali who was backpedalling for the majority of the first and second. None of these four superheavyweights mentioned above would catch prime Frazier as cleanly as Ali did because they don't have the handspeed or footspeed to set up and land the same amout of punches. Again, I'm not talking about the depleted Joe Frazier who showed up to defend his title against Foreman, because that version of Frazier likely gets KO'ed by all of the above big men inside 8 rounds.

I don't think Bowe, Lewis, Vitali or Wlad make it the championship rounds against pre FOTC - FOTC Joe Frazier. Lennox Lewis, if he brings the temperment and self fear that Foreman brought to his fight against Frazier with the thinking that he'd better finish Joe early or get knocked out himself, could definitely make this fight interesting with Frazier visiting the canvas once or twice. The same thing for Riddick Bowe, because he does have power, and solid inside skills but none of them are the animal that Foreman was when he fought Frazier in 1973.

I'd bet on these four guys trying to set up jabs and right hands early against Frazier, trying to keep a safe distance, only to have the gap closed by the middle rounds, and all being on the receiving end of some wicked body shots from Frazier.

 

all would have abused him foreman style.
but maybe somehow against wlad he could repeat brewster scenario but much better chance for a wlad stoppage.
if tyson and tua could not beat lewis , frazier who did not carry the power of either one of them and also did not posses tua's chin , and also smaller even than mccall and rahman and holyfield and mercer will probably have no realistic chance against him.
bowe and vitali feasted on the likes of frazier . easy meal for both.

 

The Mike Tyson that fought Lennox Lewis had no business fighting Lennox Lewis at that stage of his career, especially weighing in excess of 230 lbs. I believe Mike's weight at fight time was 240 lbs. Lewis was still scared of this depleted version of Tyson and probably could have finished him earlier than the 8th round. This is a fight that probably has drastically different results if Lewis faced a Tyson near his prime weight and prime shape, 215 - 220 lbs.

Tua and Tyson stood in front of Lewis trying to get inside his reach with very little head movement. Pre-FOTC Joe Frazier would be much more difficult for any of the above mentioned to hit cleanly, and all them being superheavyweights provide Frazier with a sizeable target for his body shots.

I don't believe Lennox beat Holyfield the second time around as convincingly as some say on this forum, and in fact there are more than a few people who believe Lennox was handed the rematch victory based on the controversial decision from the first fight.

I will agree with you that Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschkos could beat the lazy, out of shape 1973 version of Frazier like Foreman did but not as severe a beating. Perhaps Lewis KOs this version of Frazier in less than 5 rounds, and Bowe probably 7 or 8.

None of the above would last 12 rounds against prime Frazier, pre-FOTC and I'd favour Joe stopping all of them before the 15 round distance.

 

Lewis more durable than Frazier? Man the Foreman fight really haunts him.

 

Chuvalo said a lot of things. Some in his own interest to boost the fighters around him, thereby enhancing his legacy. Although, I think he's right about a lot of the stuff he says about the 70's fighters. Still... he thinks he out-jabbed and beat Ali in their rematch. Just to put things in perspective as Chuvalo credibility can be less than stellar at times.

 

I dare say Lennox Lewis is beating overrating on these quarters, on the grounds against Joe Frazier. For some reason, I have trouble giving him the kind of faith others seem to do in this mythical fight. Anybody agree with this suspicion?