Is Vitali Klitschko an ATG?

I would agree, although Peter was probably the most capable and dangerous opponent when he faced Wlad, and Wlad still struggled like hell with him. Forget about Mercer he was shot to pieces and the rest were just plain bad.

 

And would you have put a brass farthing on either of them, had Lewis fought them?
If he did avoid them .which I honestly cannot say it would have been for financial reasons ,not out of fear of losing imo.
Also out of consideration of the fans

 

I really am not knocking either brother, they fight what is there ,unfortunately the only quality fight for either of them is each other.
Since that will not happen they will have their alltime status quantified according to whom they DO actually beat

 

No I think he feels exactly the way you do. Me being a fan of stylistic matchups, I wanted to see Lewis face Ruiz at that time, regardless of consideration of the fans. Lewis was just having too easy of a time bombing out stationary giants. I wanted to see him have to actually approach a fight systematically rather than rush in and bomb a frozen stiff. Ruiz was ugly but effective, and was wondering how Lewis would deal with that stuff after guys with quicker hands like Holyfield and Johnson had some issues.

Agree on the Klits, and its not looking good that either will turn their legacy into anything special

 

1. He beat Miske twice first time it was a good win and while Miske was pretty much in bad health all the time he did manage to beat Gibbons, Brennan, Jack Dillon and Battling Levinsky. So he proved he could beat top level guys. Agreed its not a great win especially the second win but a proven top tier fighter.

2. Sanders has one big win that's it, he can hardly be regarded as a great win not to mention he came in horrible shape. He was fat had no cardio and still managed to drop Vitali. And the worse thing is that beating Sanders is Vitali best win at least all these five guys have bonafied quality wins even if its only one or two thats more then Vitali.

3. True Vitali is past his best as was Gomez and Moore but my point was Moore has a lot of wins at heavyweight like prime Nino Valdes and Bob Baker who I would regard better then Virchis and a 42 year old McCall. I always been a fan of Gomez he looked excellent at crusier but he hasn't really beaten anyone of note.

4. Patterson proved himself at heavyweight even past his best sure the Liston loses are bad but he still has a lot of top wins and is a two time linear champion. Vitali has never unified what is regarded as a weak division even when his bro didn't hold a strap.

5. He did gain some serious weight whether it was really 100lbs is questionable. However he was coming off a 6 year retirement to face probably his biggest test and while out classed but up a brave effort.

6. For me and I know many feel Wills resume is clearly better. People always talk about how Langford and co were past their past sure but when they first met Wills was still green and learning yet he still managed to get the wins.

7. Maybe some don't want to face him yet Wlad has fought in the same era is probably more skilled and has fought better fighters because he seems to desperate to be regarded as the champ not merely a belt holder. I've never really got this from Vitali to the same degree and in the sport now you need to unify, all the recent great heavys have Lennox, Tyson and Holyfield.

For me its more about the opposition followed by the dominance. Dominating a Williams level fighter is not as impressive as beating a great even if it was a close call at least you proved you can beat the best. He does have longevity I give him that and to come out of retirement to perform against Peter the way he did was impressive.

Fact remains he quit on his stool while ahead to a fighter he was having little trouble with style wise. And Lennox was pretty much done with the sport and Vitali basically made his name on a loss which cannot be said about the other five heavyweights mentioned above. He might beat the likes of Haye and co but I can't give him credit for that until he does it for all we know he could lose badly. Also the question is if he is an all time great now. Not if he beats fighter a, b and c.

 

Not that you'll bring a real argument in response:

Byrd was in his prime when Wlad initally shut him out. He was declining by the time of the rematch but still squeezing past everyone he faced with many giving hiim a chance to beat the than sporadic Wlad.

McCline was a solid prospect at the time, and had just beat Briggs and Grant.

Don't think I touted Mercer as a great win, Wlad was just the first and only to stop him.

Jefferson was a hot prospect with well thought of hand speed, size, and power...just had stamina issues. Dangerous fighter.

Brewster was much better than credited for.

Brock earned his mandatory spot by beating McCline and other prospects, had good tools, and is the last fighter to perform well against Wlad.

Shulz beat lineal Champ Foreman in the eyes of most, again just a credit that Wlad was the only one to stop.

Sultan and Chageav were actually good.

 

You have one opinion,I have another .
I think I have given all the time to the quality of the Kllit's opponents I want to .
I think the division outside them ,[with the possible exception of Haye ]stinks you don't agree.You will not change your view ,neither will I, so this is not a fruitful debate.
I'm therefore out.

 

When did any opponent keep Bowe on the outside?

Vitali wasn't hard to hit for Lewis and that was a Lewis at the end of his career.

Watch the fights again.

Not that Vitali is a bodypuncher anyway, so his chances of going south are very low.

"Mostly stationary"?

 

Neither brother at this time makes ATG status. The main problem is that they won't fight each other. The current heavyweight scene is relatively threadbare as it is without the two most dominant fighters refusing to meet due to blood ties. Unless they do fight each other I can't see how this can change. Their respective bodies of work do not stand up to the highest scrutiny and there's hardly anyone out there that can be a legacy fight, for either brother.

The only real fight to be made is against each other.

 

I agree the winner probably deserves to be an ATG. Who wins at this point?

 

While this comment was addressed to Mongoose, I do have a question for you. It is plausible that without the Kltischko's the division would be very competitive, and the fighters would look better vs each other. In other words, its the Kltischko who make opponents look worse than they really are by imposing their size, sills, and smarts...forcing their opponents to confront their advantages for nearly 180 seconds of each round.

I could rip anyone's competition. You pick the champion. Its easy really.

Watch:

Jeffries, as you say fought older and smaller guys

Johnson title reign was very poor, and consisted of the same.

Dempsey did not beat a great heavy..and he struggled some

Louis fought mostly bum of the month guys, and struggled vs the best he fought.

Marciano, fought older past their prime guys.

Liston only had one title defense.

Ali had title opponents far worse than Kevin Johnson, and lost too many rounds to mediocre contenders. It is likely one of the Liston fights was fixed, and Ali should be 1-2 vs Kenny Norton.

See how easy it is to rip competition?

 

Yeah, Bowe is the most mobile big man ever...he's known for his swift footwork. He continously got inside Gonzales's reach and busted him up with uppercuts too.

Sorry, I think Golota was at his most impressive boxing Bowe from the outside. Its evident that with his jab alone he could have won those fights, very frustrating. He didn't need the sloppy body work that cost him both matches but Golota is Golota and he can't resist going wild.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNW5lpa_ehM[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADrvQjCPqjM&feature=related[/ame]

 

And Wlad's class was pretty solid at the time, good names considering he was also a rising prospect.

Jefferson's knockout of the year

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmswbDd4CeM[/ame]


McCline sends Grant into oblivion

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhGReqwjzTs[/ame]

If they were coming up now, people would be talking about how they are going to kill the Klitschko brothers.

 

In answer to your question,if the Klits were not fighting ,the division would indeed be competitive, as you are correct in saying,,it is their dominance and supremacy that makes it a foregone conclusion when they make a defence.
I do not think the challengers would look better however,just more evenly matched.
I have never suggested that the Klits are not head and shoulders above their challengers , talent wise, as well as physically.
If you match two journeyman in a fight ,boxers who are roughly of equal ability ,you would hope to see an entertaining scrap,but it will still be two journeyman ,performing ,with the limitations that they have .
Your premise that you can rip anyone's competition falls on this point imo.

Jeffries ,apart from a narrow window when he could have fought Johnson while he himself was still champion ,fought all realistic challengers ,plus a couple of " gimmies"

Johnson's reputation rests on what he did before he was champ imo.

Dempsey in his run up to the title was blowing people away,and the images engrained on fans mind are of him savaging Willard.
He should have fought Wills,I think he would have stopped him, we will never know.

Louis likewise, in his first two years as a pro was koing contenders,and two former heavyweight champs.In his third year he kod another two ex champs,he destroyed his opponents.

Three years and 32 opponents,only three of whom saw the final bell.
As Champ who did he duck?

Marciano 's challengers were older ,slightly past it,but that is the nature of the sport.Apart from Ali Frazier 1.when have you had two prime champs meet in the heavyweight division? Even then ,Ali was not really prime.

Marciano kod two ex champs who rank very highly today ,plus a great Light Heavy who had considerable sucess as a heavyweight ,and was still in contention in that division after Rocky retired. Again who did he avoid?
Valdes? Moore beat him easily Marciano would have crushed him imo.

Liston's reign was brief ,he was allready past his best, imo and his training was often perfunctory.
His misfortune was one of timing ,he defended against the greatest of the heavyweights in his second defence and lost, end of.
He too, is rated on the basis of what he did before he became champ imo.

Ali had some gimmies, but he also beat as good a collection of challengers as any imo.,and he was doing it when past prime.
Who in either Klits record compares with Frazier,Foreman,Norton,Patterson,Quarry?
The Klits beat who was there ,thats all you can do
Final thoughts on their opponents?
"You cannot make silk purses out of sows ears"

 

1. Believe it or not, there are some people who are neither "mostly stationary" nor "the most mobile man ever".

2. Now Vitali is like Gonzales?

He may have been winning rounds because of his work on the outside, but he was surviving because of what he was doing inside.