Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

Ali wasn't a good in-fighter at all. Lewis, and Bowe were. Frazier is in trouble here. While Wlad is not a good in-fighter, he clinches even better than Ali did, and is so tall it would really limit Frazier's range.

Ali tended to take breaks on the ropes, this is where Frazier went to work on him. Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis know better than to spend time on the ropes, and although I do think Ali had solid power, Ali is not in Bowe's, Lewis, Wlad's class as a puncher.

Sorry, Frazier was rocked and stunned too often on film by journeyman, nearly KO'd by Bonevenna, and easily floored and hurt by Foreman. Foreman was not as fast or as accurate as Lewis, Bowe, and Wlad were. As the film shows, Foreman had no trouble at all landing on Frazier. I'm not buying Frazier's defense will help him here.

I don't think Frazier is equipped to take out super heavies. He just does not have a solid enough chin, size, or versatility.

 

I don't think either Klit has the skillset to beat him.

Bowe is 50/50. Bowe's lack of defense and willingness to trade could get him into trouble, or could get him the win. Very hard to see. This would be an absolute war.

Lewis beats him.

So, 3-1, or 2-2.

 

I think he definitely beats Wlad by ko. He would get inside that jab and land something big (probably a left hook) and Wlad would never recover.

Bowe if he imposed his size could be a tricky fight. But I think he may get drawn into a war which would suit Frazier. Bowe doesn't have the power of a Foreman so I see Frazier out hussling him for a decision.

Vitali to me is still a fairly unknown quantity as he hasn't faced anyone on the level of Frazier apart from a well out of condition and past prime Lennox Lewis. He obviously seems to have a granite chin and good power. This is tough to call because Frazier constantly walks forward and this could play into Vitali's hands. But we haven't seen Klit under the kind of pressure Smokin' Joe would put him under. I would say Frazier by decision.

Lewis would be a very good fight but I just feel Lennoxs ability to box on the outside using his physical advantages would see him get the decision. His wins against a past prime Tyson and a poor Tua can by no means compare to a prime Frazier but I think are a guage as to how he would approach the fight.

So yeah I agree Frazier 3 - 1.

 

Lovely dissection:good

I would say though, that Frazier was pretty near to his prime when the 1st Foreman fight came aroundl; unless you think that first Ali fight ruined him? I personally don't feel so, just feel Foreman had Fraziers number and was, at that point (and possibly now) the most demonic force in Heavyweight history.

 

And... Lewis was in no way a good in-fighter. In fact, Ali was superior in this department.

Yes for FOTC over 15 rounds right after exile. Not the Ali of fight 2, and Manilla fight isn't worth mentioning consider both fighters decline.

Good thing they would spend no time throwing half as many punches.

Advantage Frazier.

 

when i first read your question about the 205lbs bob and weave guy toney came to mind , then tyson. tua did not for some reason.
he is the least elusive of these 4 and neither one of tyson , tua , frazier , toney would have a win against neither of the terrrible 4 : wlad , lewis , vitali , bowe. maybe the primest tyson would have had a chance against anyone excpet vitali. but just a chance. and tyson was more than 205lbs.
frazier would have lost to them all. but maybe could repeat what brewster did against wlad , but only maybe.
if i was frazier's manager and forced to pick one of those 4 it would have been wlad. but i still consider wlad the favorite to even stop frazier or at least decision him wildly. but wlad TKO frazier is the most realistic option.

 

I don't think that there has been anything comparable to Frazier within the careers of the four superheavyweights listed.

Tua?

Don't make me laugh.

The guy was in slow motion compared to Frazier in full cry, even at the stage of his career when his workrate was right up there.

That is before we even get into his lack of training ethic, willingnes to take punishment to land his punches and everything else crucial to a pressure fighter.

Comparisons between Frazier and fighters like Brewstewr or Peter are even more far fetched.

It can somtimes be informative to watch compilations of footage that show various great heavyweights consecutively. You can be surprized by what pops out of the screen at you. In Fraziers case I honestly thought that he was faster on the offense than Tyson.

 

+1

I have similar observations when I watch Frazier. He really blows me away sometimes. I think he is underrated because of his relatively light weight, which I think is partially a result of his era.

Look at how thick and big he looks in the ring next to his son and Tyson in their stare down at 1:06:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxIFXgVO9Qc[/ame]

 

You can quote two fighters heights and weights but untill you see them together you never quite know what you are comparing.

 

If Frazier was so damned hard to hit why was his head the size of a pumpkin after every time he fought a decent fighter? He made his mark on b-level small heavyweights and a great, small heavyweight who was on the comeback trail. That is it. He gets obliterated by modern-sized heavies as was proven by the skillfully challenged though strong Foreman.

 

Clinching is more than just grabbing the other guy illegal in the back of the head, which is what Ali got away with. Wlad has a skillful method of clinching that is executed with technique, speed and power...and he's stronger than Ali was, and has a good 25-30 pounds on Ali. Yes, Wlad is a better clincher than Ali is/was.

I never said Ali was a dumb fighter, but he took many breaks on the ropes, including fights that had nothing to do with Frazier. Ali was not always in tip top shape. The films show this, and excess flesh around Ali's mid section can been see in a few of his fights pre Spinks. While Ali took breaks on the ropes, Lewis, Bowe, and Wlad never did. Because Ali wasn't a huge puncher, people could rush him without having to worry about a fight changing power shot. Sometimes I get the feeling most here are well read, but really have not been in a boxing ring, or talked to fighters. The bottom line is if your in there with a big puncher, he gets RESPECT. If he's skilled, even more so. Ali was not a big puncher, hence people did not fear his power.

Allow me to fill in the blanks of Frazier's career. As an amateur he was down plenty. Frazier was floored in his 2nd pro fight vs a poor fighter, stunned by the likes of that Mexican heavy, Stander ( who buckled Frazier's knees ), and Bugner. The thing to focus on is these guys hardly landed clean shot, yet when the did, Frazier did not take them well. Frazier could go many rounds with Ali. Again, Wlad, Bowe, and Lewis hit much harder. In addition, Frazier management did not match him with big punchers such as Shavers, Lyle or Norton, or vs. Sonny Liston or Mac Foster. Let's be reasonable here Cloverlay and Yank Durham knew Frazier was best suited to chew up smaller boxers without a lot of power. If a mid level puncher like Bonevena could nearly TKO Frazier, then a big puncher could do a lot more.

Which fights? Frazier was behind on points until about round 8 vs a fat Buster Mathis ( who was a lighter punching near super heavy ), got caught clean vs Bonevena, and was easily targeted by Foreman. I think people confuse an occasional slip or duck with good defense. Good defense means the other guy misses you a lot.

 

Ali was superior to Lewis as an in-fighter??? You do not know what you are talking about, and no serious boxing historian or analysts would agree with you. But hey, laugh on...

 

Such a badass stare from Frazier. The trainer/dad of the fighter and he's still got that intense stare down to the future of the HW division and perceived new "HW intimidator."

 

LoL, yes 1 man and 1 overweight, poorly disciplined/trained Frazier ruins his chances against super-heavyweights. Eddie Futch said he had a "Tendency to swell up pretty bad during fights, but he didn't cut much."